School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[I like to watch]

I know the schools you are referring to and in some respects good on them. Until the AAGPS competition rules are actually enforced, then the rorting of that particular clause in the AAGPS Code of Practice will continue.



Either the AAGPS Headmasters need to amend the Code of Practice or enforce it.

No it is not good on them to blatantly flout the rules that they agreed to. Cheating is still cheating even if it is self regulated.
I agree with you on the last point emphatically.Amend or enforce.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

ILTW,

I have been around junior footy and schools footy for that long that not much can shock me anymore.

I am constantly amused by the many subtle, and not so subtle, attempts to rort the various rules that are attempted by various parties. The most amusing factor is that the belief that they will not get found out, and that they are the only ones to have EVER thought of that particular rort.

I have coached, administrated, refereed, spectated, barbequed, fund raised and trivia nighted for so long that I think I have witnessed, or heard every possible rort or excuse under the sun to avoid doing the right thing.

I know the schools you are referring to and in some respects good on them. Until the AAGPS competition rules are actually enforced, then the rorting of that particular clause in the AAGPS Code of Practice will continue.



Either the AAGPS Headmasters need to amend the Code of Practice or enforce it.

HJ if our paths ever cross beyond cyberspace I am going to do my best to come up with some ploy you've never seen before.....just wait! It could be a BBQ...or a trivia night.....

 

[Hugh Jarse]

HJ if our paths ever cross beyond cyberspace I am going to do my best to come up with some ploy you've never seen before...just wait! It could be a BBQ.or a trivia night...

I can see a thread for the quieter summer months, perhaps even with a prize - "The best excuse you have heard to avoid Rugby Grass Roots duties in Canteen, BBQ or Fund Raising"

 

[Hugh Jarse]

No it is not good on them to blatantly flout the rules that they agreed to. Cheating is still cheating even if it is self regulated.
I agree with you on the last point emphatically.Amend or enforce.

As so eloquently put (identified by my research assistant MOTH)

...snip...
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

The reported prevalance of Sporting Scholarships within certain AAGPS rugby programmes is for the AAGPS Headmasters to address.

I will close with noting that there are plenty of other aspects of the AAGPS Code of Practice that also appear to be quite regularly breached.

Follow the links to the code of practice on this web site:http://aagps.com/

 

[en_force_er]

That will not identify any boys on sports scholarships since year 7.
Some kids parents can only afford two/three years at a GPS School, so they send their boys in Senior College only.
Publishing the year started with the school is not a true indicator of scholarship rorting.

I never thought of this but now that I think about it plenty of people I know have done this. There are other factors too, like many schools only take boarders in seniour levels.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Here is a series of hypotheticals for all the correspondents on this thread.

1. If YOU were approached by an agent of a Private School (or a third party closely associated with that Private School) and offered a Full Fees Scholarship/Bursary, would you accept?

2. Would your view change depending on the year this offer is made?
It would appear that some kids get offered scholarships in Yr 6 for Yr 7 entry, but the majority of appear to occur in Yr 9 or Yr 10 (for yr 10 -Y12 or Y11-Y12) after the boy makes U15 or U16 rep teams.

3. Would your view change if the Scholarship/bursary was funded entirely from third party funds, and not effectively being subsidised from the fees of other full fee paying parents?

4. Would your view change if the agent offering the scholarship/bursary was from the School your son was already attending, ie no change of school, no "importing", possibly a defensive measure to stop poaching from other schools, possibly a genuine leadership (non-triangle playing scholarship?



While the marginal cost to the school for an extra child is nowhere near the full fees cost charged to regular students, those marginal costs are not well known, whereas School Fees are publically known.

A Yr 7 - Yr 12 Education at leading GPS Schools could cost $120,000 before extras. This is using $20k per year and this is low for some, and represents about $250000+ pre tax income.

A Yr 11/Y12 scholarship is similarly $40000-$50000 saving from parental expenditures ($100000 pre tax).

School Scholarships are not against the Law.

Would you turn down an offer of a free $50000 Car?
If you were a true blue Ford family, would you turn down a free $50000 Holden?

 

[I like to watch]

HJ,
Nobody has suggested that it is the wrong thing to ACCEPT a scholarship, however it comes to them.
Nobody suggests a GPS education would not be a great thing for any kid.
Everyone knows how much GPS educations costs.
Not sure what point you are making?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

It just seems to me that the anti-scholarship group fall into one of the following groupings:

1. It is against the AAGPS Competition rules, and therefore bad.
2. Kids will miss on the opportunity of playing for the First XV due to importing.
3. It is not fair that someone is getting an expensive education for nothing.
4. It does not accurately reflect the overall Rugby programme at the School.
5. It is an unsustainable “Arms Race” with the rich getting richer.
6. It is a cynical ego stroking marketing exercise based around certain “Anniversary" Events.

The cynic in me just wonders whether those who are forthright and voiciferous on this thread against scholarships would maintain that stance if they were approached with one of the offers above?

Are there some "acceptable" Sporting Scholarships?

 

[whatever]

What is this "massive influx"? Who are the "many"? Do you guys think that if you say it often enough it will make it come true.

All I ever see here are a whole lot of rumours and third hand accounts of countless nameless boys who are supposedly on rugby scholarships or were offered rugby scholarships.

It's a real shame that there is such a racist undertone to all this as talk of New and "imports" pretty much always involves boys who have darker skin.

Over 30 new boys started in Year 9 in 2010. The places were publicly advertised in 2009 and enrolments closed in April 2009 - when most of the boys were 13.

And because 2 out of 30 boys turned out to be good rugby players, New are suddenly the biggest "importers" in GPS history.

But you are right about the coaching. Under guys like Brad Gill, James Godfrey, Andrew Hill and Tim Rapp, and with lots of hard work, a player like Alan Latinupulu can go from 4ths in 2011 to 1sts in 2012.

But enough about New .. lets talk about the 200 bursary boys at Riverview. Are we seriously expected to believe that this secretive program doesn't include any talented rugby players ?????

I don't wish to be rude, madam but can you not read, I have named students and others on here have but you continually ignore or overlook. Are the students from Newington, named on here, on scholarships?

 

[whatever]

It just seems to me that the anti-scholarship group fall into one of the following groupings:

1. It is against the AAGPS Competition rules, and therefore bad.
2. Kids will miss on the opportunity of playing for the First XV due to importing.
3. It is not fair that someone is getting an expensive education for nothing.
4. It does not accurately reflect the overall Rugby programme at the School.
5. It is an unsustainable “Arms Race” with the rich getting richer.
6. It is a cynical ego stroking marketing exercise based around certain “Anniversary" Events.

The cynic in me just wonders whether those who are forthright and voiciferous on this thread against scholarships would maintain that stance if they were approached with one of the offers above?

Are there some "acceptable" Sporting Scholarships?

Definitely would have accepted on behalf of my boys.

I fall into 4,5 and 6.

Truthfully, the current GPS competition is a joke and based on point 6 -egos; just be honest and upfront about it.

 

[supporter]

I don't wish to be rude, madam but can you not read, I have named students and others on here have but you continually ignore or overlook. Are the students from Newington, named on here, on scholarships?

Post number?

 

[whatever]

Post number?

Post #832 and 836

 

[Hugie]

Unfortunately this feeds into what I see as an unholy alliance which is at the heart of the problem for NSW rugby.
It goes like this:

1. GPS schools want rugby to be seen as an elite sport played by elite people at elite schools. AND the only way to succeed is to go to one of these schools (and pay the fees). Then to Sydeny uni.
2. Rugby league wants rugby to be seen as an elite sport played by the elites, and league to be seen as "our game" accessable to everyone with great history. So far everbody in this equation is happy.
3. The administrators of NSW rugby aren't too against this idea, but can't be seen to support it i.e. support it by faint opposition. It helps market advertising to sponsors who want to target a high income market.
4. Result is the boys and parents in the bulk of NSW population go for league (or soccer) as it is "our game", "you'll never make it in rugby AND look at the average suburban guys on TV who have made it in league". AND the people who watch rugby drive Mercedes Benz and use Macquarie Private wealth advisors (although I don't know why).

Unfortunately it is very difficult to break these unholy alliances as there is a lot invested in the perception AND the only looser is Australian rugby. To break it usually takes a major event and strong leadership.

 

[Fred Clark]

After seven years of coaching rugby in the USA (high school boys, university, men and women), it seems fairly obvious to me that sports flourish when the grass roots playing pool grows and develops, providing the critical mass for excellence at the elite level.

The examples of lacrosse and soccer in the USA, and Aussie Rules in Oz clearly show that sports flourish when the base of the pyramid expands.

High school rugby in the USA is growing almost exponentially, with dozens of new high schools starting programs every year. They have over 600 high schools with boy's programs now. How many high schools added boys (or girls) rugby in Australia in recent years?

The GPS is certainly venerable, and still turns out top talent, but it is most certainly not the future. The future is fighting to establish new programs at every high school and primary school on the Eastern Seaboard (to start with) that we possibly can. Do we have a strategy for that? Please point me to a strategy or Action Plan that is working to achieve this (not a rhetorical discussion document).

In the USA, university rugby players that go on to be school teachers are starting rugby programs everywhere. And they are getting better.

Arguing about a few private schools and some scholarships seems quaint and beyond irrelevant to me. It's got very little to do with anything serious if one is serious about developing rugby more broadly. That's my two cents.

 

[whatever]

After seven years of coaching rugby in the USA (high school boys, university, men and women), it seems fairly obvious to me that sports flourish when the grass roots playing pool grows and develops, providing the critical mass for excellence at the elite level.

The examples of lacrosse and soccer in the USA, and Aussie Rules in Oz clearly show that sports flourish when the base of the pyramid expands.

High school rugby in the USA is growing almost exponentially, with dozens of new high schools starting programs every year. They have over 600 high schools with boy's programs now. How many high schools added boys (or girls) rugby in Australia in recent years?

The GPS is certainly venerable, and still turns out top talent, but it is most certainly not the future. The future is fighting to establish new programs at every high school and primary school on the Eastern Seaboard (to start with) that we possibly can. Do we have a strategy for that? Please point me to a strategy or Action Plan that is working to achieve this (not a rhetorical discussion document).

In the USA, university rugby players that go on to be school teachers are starting rugby programs everywhere. And they are getting better.

Arguing about a few private schools and some scholarships seems quaint and beyond irrelevant to me. It's got very little to do with anything serious if one is serious about developing rugby more broadly. That's my two cents.

Some good points Fred. Unfortunately, in the land of Oz rugby union is the secondary code with league being the dominant code in State and Catholic High Schools which would make up about 80% plus of the school student population in NSW and Qld.

Also, as you can read on other posts reprersentative team school selectors (who are mainly from GPS, CAS) have a policy of not selecting boys from these schools, especially from the CCC association which then further alienates these potential quality senior rugby players back to rugby league.

I see very little hope for senior rugby in the future (and I mean near future); under the current circumstances it will not be to long before we are a tier 2 rugby nation.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

It just seems to me that the anti-scholarship group fall into one of the following groupings:

1. It is against the AAGPS Competition rules, and therefore bad.
2. Kids will miss on the opportunity of playing for the First XV due to importing.
3. It is not fair that someone is getting an expensive education for nothing.
4. It does not accurately reflect the overall Rugby programme at the School.
5. It is an unsustainable “Arms Race” with the rich getting richer.
6. It is a cynical ego stroking marketing exercise based around certain “Anniversary" Events.

The cynic in me just wonders whether those who are forthright and voiciferous on this thread against scholarships would maintain that stance if they were approached with one of the offers above?

Are there some "acceptable" Sporting Scholarships?

I speak from a position of strength: i was asked whether I would like to investigate the options for saving some money by going to a particular school. My wife was not interested.


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[Inside Shoulder]

[*]GPS schools want rugby to be seen as an elite sport played by elite people at elite schools. AND the only way to succeed is to go to one of these schools (and pay the fees). Then to Sydeny uni.
[*].

totally disagree that this is how the schools see themselves: you're talking about 5 maximum from any one school following this path in a given year even for the very best teams each year.
If this were the plan it would be broken in the first year and the ring ins would soon stop parents spending the money from year 7 simply because they could spend for 5 years and marmaduke still miss the 1sts in the 6th year, eithervfrom imports or just because hes not good enough.
This is about winning the premiership.
The schools have become immersed in an arms race to do that: everything else is a by product.

I don't think I could agree more strongly with you about the damage this is doing to rugby.
I am not one who wants rugby to be the most popular game, though I am not actively against it. But I want us to be good at it as a nation and the only way for that to occur is to broaden the catchment. The present arrangements are narrowing it. This is what I now see Fred is saying - it might not take long at the rate of growth he is talking about for the USA to pass us!



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[Brian Westlake]

Here is a series of hypotheticals for all the correspondents on this thread.

1. If YOU were approached by an agent of a Private School (or a third party closely associated with that Private School) and offered a Full Fees Scholarship/Bursary, would you accept?

2. Would your view change depending on the year this offer is made?
It would appear that some kids get offered scholarships in Yr 6 for Yr 7 entry, but the majority of appear to occur in Yr 9 or Yr 10 (for yr 10 -Y12 or Y11-Y12) after the boy makes U15 or U16 rep teams.

3. Would your view change if the Scholarship/bursary was funded entirely from third party funds, and not effectively being subsidised from the fees of other full fee paying parents?

4. Would your view change if the agent offering the scholarship/bursary was from the School your son was already attending, ie no change of school, no "importing", possibly a defensive measure to stop poaching from other schools, possibly a genuine leadership (non-triangle playing scholarship?



While the marginal cost to the school for an extra child is nowhere near the full fees cost charged to regular students, those marginal costs are not well known, whereas School Fees are publically known.

A Yr 7 - Yr 12 Education at leading GPS Schools could cost $120,000 before extras. This is using $20k per year and this is low for some, and represents about $250000+ pre tax income.

A Yr 11/Y12 scholarship is similarly $40000-$50000 saving from parental expenditures ($100000 pre tax).

School Scholarships are not against the Law.

Would you turn down an offer of a free $50000 Car?
If you were a true blue Ford family, would you turn down a free $50000 Holden?

HJ
You are right in saying that scholarships are not against the law. If the ACB or NSWCB choose to pay for a young mans education at an elite GPS, is that wrong?
In one word YES!!!!
Is this a "return on investment?" Not out of the parents that pay each week for their sons to play Cricket/Rugby Union/ Rugby League/Soccer.
As a full fund paying parent of a Student and also supporting an older student continuing his studies, I have massive issues of a third party such a state or national sports body paying for full scholarships. Look at funding kids in the plural, not the singular.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Brian,

When I mentioned third parties paying the scholarship fees, I was more thinking along the lines of "old boys" associations or "friends of nnnn rugby" and the like. If the posters here are to be believed there are some of these organisations funding some bursaries.

I don't think that there are any ARU/NSWRU/waratah funded scholarships at GPS schools. If there were I would lump these in the same category as those scholarships when the full fee paying parents are subsiding scholarships. Effectively the parents paying village club regisation fees are subsidising the scholarship.

 

[Brian Westlake]

Brian,

When I mentioned third parties paying the scholarship fees, I was more thinking along the lines of "old boys" associations or "friends of nnnn rugby" and the like. If the posters here are to be believed there are some of these organisations funding some bursaries.

I don't think that there are any ARU/NSWRU/waratah funded scholarships at GPS schools. If there were I would lump these in the same category as those scholarships when the full fee paying parents are subsiding scholarships. Effectively the parents paying village club regisation fees are subsidising the scholarship.

As I stated HJ, there is at least one young man having his fees paid by NSWCB. The player in question is overtly open about it, much to the chagrin of his fellow 1stXl team members. Is GPS schooling going to add to this one boy? I hope so, because if he fails at Cricket... Anyhoo, are we all just kidding ourselves here?