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School sporting scholarships/recruitment

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Thanks scaraby - agree there may be a number of unreliable witnesses here. What I would find helpful to discard these opinions is if you could provide an absolute number of boys (no names) who are Easts Juniors in the Scots 16As to support your argument. Cheers.
I doubt its that simple.
I know of the background of (at least) 2 boys in the 16s one of whom has been named, who I suspect are figuring highly in the minds of those complaining.
Neither was in the prep and both were easts juniors. Both have or had brothers at the school.
I doubt very much that any inducement was offered to get these boys to the school.
In the TSC 13s there are 3 or 4 boys who turned up from the NSWPSSA side of 2012, but I am not sure that any inducements would have been offered: one is the brother of one of the 2 I mentioned in 16s, and all were at other private schools in 2012.



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The Spectator

Herbert Moran (7)
Was going to resist but can't anymore...talk about playing the man or men in this case..just about every number,percentage,rep comment etc made here about the scots under 16s is wrong,wrong and very defamatory to a great bunch of kids. ...your main references seem to be someone told me or the rantings of a disgruntled ex staff member who just makes things up...go and get your facts right and stop the tall poppy crap...easts don't have an u16 rep team..start there.


What BS. They can buy as many as they like and feel good about winning with their million dollar team but don't deny it. That's far worse.

Why not supply a playing list from Warringah and you will see some remarkable coincidences.
 

scaraby

Ron Walden (29)
What BS. They can buy as many as they like and feel good about winning with their million dollar team but don't deny it. That's far worse.

Why not supply a playing list from Warringah and you will see some remarkable coincidences.
provide the list..then work out where they were first ,scots? or warringah?..as I said don't assume...do some research
 

The Spectator

Herbert Moran (7)
provide the list..then work out where they were first ,scots? or warringah?..as I said don't assume.do some research

I have. I assume nothing. Given your inside information, perhaps you should put up a list so we can all see who is not on a scholarship and we can put the issue to rest?
 

scaraby

Ron Walden (29)
I have. I assume nothing. Given your inside information, perhaps you should put up a list so we can all see who is not on a scholarship and we can put the issue to rest?
no thanks not my business and certainly not yours, why do you need to know so badly?...pretty happy for them to be a tight bunch of kids playing rugby together,learning lots and enjoying life.
I know of three new boys, 1 who has an older brother at school these kids are your targets?
Scots has a pretty big life change for most kids in year 9 so year 10 is a natural intake year anyway,especially for people that can't afford 6 years+ of fees.
There are kids that came from feeder schools in year 7 who i presume you are including in the "rugby scholarship" conspiracy theory. Therefore you assume they have no other life skills...academic/leadership,old boys?
You say you've done research yet you want me to post your findings so if you're wrong then you can deny it.
Maybe you should go out and watch them and see how much they are suffering if you are so concerned..better still be brave and ask their parents or post your findings....
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
I have spoken to one of the parents,whose son was enrolled in yr 7.
He is happy to tell anyone that they pay Zero fees.
That a 12 yo was targeted and approached is a disgrace.
Scots have been very active in providing Scholarships to sportsmen in sports other than Rugby.I know personally families that took up offers from the School, and families that rejected these offers.
If you are suggesting that some of the full paying students are being mistaken by some, to be scholarship holders.You may be right.
If you are stating the School doesn't provide Scholarships you are wrong,wrong,wrong.
 

Brian Westlake

Arch Winning (36)
You're kidding, I hope.
Have you just got back from the states?
How many of these kids ever play pro rugby? Very very few. Proficiency below the age of 18 (at least) is a poor indicator of future success: the vast majority of wallabies did not play OS schools or oz schools A or even for their state schools team.
I hope you're not out there among unsuspecting kids and fee paying parents spreading the idea that winning a GPS rugby premiership, or even playing in it, might provide anyone with a real chance of a pro rugby career. Have a look at the debate about the extent to which this years oz school boys are thought likely to be able to carve out such a career.
You'll be lucky to see 1 from each of the 6 competitive schools make it, on average, from any given year, recruited or not.
Your attitude worries me: I fear it reflects what some parents think.
I told you not to bite, didn't I? Hahahaha


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Brian Westlake

Arch Winning (36)
no thanks not my business and certainly not yours, why do you need to know so badly?.pretty happy for them to be a tight bunch of kids playing rugby together,learning lots and enjoying life.
I know of three new boys, 1 who has an older brother at school these kids are your targets?
Scots has a pretty big life change for most kids in year 9 so year 10 is a natural intake year anyway,especially for people that can't afford 6 years+ of fees.
There are kids that came from feeder schools in year 7 who i presume you are including in the "rugby scholarship" conspiracy theory. Therefore you assume they have no other life skills.academic/leadership,old boys?
You say you've done research yet you want me to post your findings so if you're wrong then you can deny it.
Maybe you should go out and watch them and see how much they are suffering if you are so concerned..better still be brave and ask their parents or post your findings..
At a soiree earlier this year and a Rugby Mum was more than happy to say that junior had been approached for a FULL Rugby scholarship to TSC. This was on the Central Coast and she stated it to all and sundry. He is enjoying the lifestyle from all accounts too.
The question therein lies Scaraby; Whom do I believe? The proud mum or you?
 

scaraby

Ron Walden (29)
At a soiree earlier this year and a Rugby Mum was more than happy to say that junior had been approached for a FULL Rugby scholarship to TSC. This was on the Central Coast and she stated it to all and sundry. He is enjoying the lifestyle from all accounts too.
The question therein lies Scaraby; Whom do I believe? The proud mum or you?
Brian, in that case you believe the Proud Mum because its fact.. please read what Ive said rather than paint me as someone who has their head in the sand...sounds like you have no problem with a worthy recipient of some well deserved help....nether do I. just don't generalise and paint 15 great kids as 1 evil schoolboy conspiracy to win at all costs. If you know the work the whole school has put in from the PREP up you would know how belittling that is.
 

The Spectator

Herbert Moran (7)
B
no thanks not my business and certainly not yours, why do you need to know so badly?.pretty happy for them to be a tight bunch of kids playing rugby together,learning lots and enjoying life.
I know of three new boys, 1 who has an older brother at school these kids are your targets?
Scots has a pretty big life change for most kids in year 9 so year 10 is a natural intake year anyway,especially for people that can't afford 6 years+ of fees.
There are kids that came from feeder schools in year 7 who i presume you are including in the "rugby scholarship" conspiracy theory. Therefore you assume they have no other life skills.academic/leadership,old boys?
You say you've done research yet you want me to post your findings so if you're wrong then you can deny it.
Maybe you should go out and watch them and see how much they are suffering if you are so concerned..better still be brave and ask their parents or post your findings..

Because you nong, scholarships are not within the spirit of the GPS and it isn't a level playing field (especially as in one of your earlier posts you talk about back filling some team weaknesses with keynote players so don't go on about the hard work that has put in).

If all schools offered scholarships, no problem. But this is not the case. With New and Scots - both schools are promoting Elite Players (check out the New website) because their home grown talent isn't strong enough to compete.

I couldn't give a rats about the boys on scholarships just the losers who deny they exist. It just makes beating them even sweeter.

It is not the whole team, just the ones on scholarships who haven't been there since Prep school. Unless there is one up at the Northern beaches.

So where is your list sanctimonious one? Let's see how desperate the good fellows at TSC are to buy the next premiership given the 2013 crop have been outbid by the King of Tonga.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
A couple of quick points: I have never seen anywhere on this thread where anyone has criticised boys or their parents for taking what has been offered to them. The criticism is of school administrators who are essentially breaking their own agreed to rules.

Finally, who benefits from this process? Individual boys - yes, certain schools - yes (if winning is that important to them), who loses? The competition - pre 1993 we had a highly competitive 8 team competition. Now High - gone, Grammar - gone and Shore with the wobbles. I'd suggest that the process doesn't benefit GPS rugby as a whole and doesn't benefit rugby in this state either as it further narrows an already small talent pool.

PS I know of boys who have been approached by Scots and are or have in the recent past been at the school on bursaries because of their rugby prowess and I know of others who have been similarly targeted, but declined to stay at their current school.
 

scaraby

Ron Walden (29)
B

Because you nong, scholarships are not within the spirit of the GPS and it isn't a level playing field (especially as in one of your earlier posts you talk about back filling some team weaknesses with keynote players so don't go on about the hard work that has put in). .....please supply

If all schools offered scholarships, no problem. But this is not the case. With New and Scots - both schools are promoting Elite Players (check out the New website) FOR SCOTS?????because their home grown talent isn't strong enough to compete. ...............you are dreaming if you think its just Scots and New or even just GPS

I couldn't give a rats about the boys on scholarships just the losers who deny they exist. It just makes beating them even sweeter. ......THEN STOP GOING ON ABOUT IT AND GO AND BEAT THEM

It is not the whole team, just the ones on scholarships who haven't been there since Prep school. Unless there is one up at the Northern beaches.....DOES THAT INCLUDE NEW YEAR 7 KIDS YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT

So where is your list sanctimonious one? WHO ME OR YOU??? YOU ALREADY HAVE IT REMEMBER YOU TOLD ME. ..Let's see how desperate the good fellows at TSC are to buy the next premiership given the 2013 crop have been outbid by the King of Tonga.
 

Kenny Powers

Ron Walden (29)
Decided to occupy some train trips looking at some statistics, around the various school sporting associations the NSW Schoolboy 1st & 2nd XV have come from. The NSW Schools Rugby Union publishes all teams going back to 1972 on its website.

Leaving aside the 2013 selections, the percentages selected across the decades can be represented in the table below. (Rounded out the decade 1972-1982)
Table.png




The interesting facts are;

- CHS’s numbers include the Sports High Schools, whom started achieving selections in the late 90’s but have dropped off in recent years.

- Whilst CHS’s numbers are down and particularly so in recent years, they achieved the same percentage in ’03-’12 as they did from ’83 – ’92.

- Whilst the GPS gained 28 selections in a 46 man squad (61%) in 2013 this is not its highest number. In 1991 it achieved 30 selections in a 42 man squad (71%).

- The GPS has gained 50% or greater of NSW selections in 89, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 11, 12 & 13.

- Newington achieved 10 selections in 2013, this has been better or equalled by Joeys in 89 (12), 90 (12), 91 (12), 95 (12), 04 (10) & 05 (11). The squads of the late 80’s and early 90’s were 42 man compared to the current 46.

- The other private schools / IAS / CCC etc have almost double their representation particularly amongst Catholic Schools whom previously you did not see on the list in the 70’s & 80’s.

So whilst recent trends show an increase of GPS players in NSW selections, it hasn’t reached the same extent of the dominance of the 80’s and 90’s.

To announce the death and destruction of rugby outside of the GPS is a little on the dramatic side given what history shows.

What is of a much more concern for me is the extremely poor financial position of the ARU, which greatly diminishes its ability to support the game outside of private schools (whom don’t require or receive support from the ARU) in the CHS school system and village clubs.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Good figures Inside Shoulder.
I am impressed that you beat George Smith to the spreadsheet because he is usually fairly slick in presenting the facts.

I reckon that you would have to say that there has been a significant increase in AAGPS selections, at the expense of CHS.
Swings and roundabouts for Others (ISA/CCC/AICES) and CAS numbers.

I think you will find an over representation of Oakhill and St Auggies in the "Others" camp showing the strength and quality of their rugby programmes and cattle.

Interesting that ISA have traditionally underperformed in the ISA vs CHS (not this year), and ISA vs CAS matches, yet have normally had more NSW players than the CAS group.

Perhaps you should also include NSW boys representing Combined States in the analysis, because a few of those have gone on to Aust Schoolboy Honours.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Perhaps you should also include NSW boys representing Combined States in the analysis, because a few of those have gone on to Aust Schoolboy Honours.

I may do that. Another interesting analysis would be to see how the schools who are the subject of recruiting allegations have increased their representation.
My impression is that "the others" are either improving or holding their own - that's good.
I would have thought the real worry is the GPS domination for the last 3 years a trend that arguably started in 2009 - just when the 16 year olds identified for recruiting in 2007 would have been making their way into opens.
 
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