Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
And/Or it's a way to keep kids who might harm the league table ranking based on ATAR out of the system....
School sporting scholarships/recruitment
- Thread starter observer
- Start date
Not in straight
Vay Wilson (31)
I don't believe there was ever any intention to expand this 'pilot' beyond Scots. It was a cosy relationship with a school that has form. My question again is who paid the $12k, and was this secret back door to university used as an inducement for any students who may not be that academic but have other attributes.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Sorry my facts bored you. I'll try and keep it brief for you this time.
1) a. Ask someone from Scots or Dr Lambert.
1) b. Ask someone from Scots or Dr Lambert, but as only 8 took the offer up, probably not.
2) a. Not according to what Dr Lambert has been quoted in the paper as saying.
2) b. Seemingly, according to Dr Lambert, again as quoted in the paper.
3) Tricky question. Scots do not offer Sporting Scholarships or otherwise breach the AAGPS Code of Conduct but we know that there have been some compliance irregularities in the past. Dr Donaldson from Scotch College who helped Dr Lambert identify that there were some compliance irregularities also discovered that up to 30 % of those on bursary assistance were "good sportsman". His investigation found that a fairly large number (IIRC) of students were receiving some form of bursary assistance. Whatever that % figure was, it would be fair to assume that a similar % of the 8 boys in the Diploma programme were receiving bursary assistance, and that 30% of those were "good sportsmen".
Scholarship and Bursary information here: http://www.tsc.nsw.edu.au/view/admissions/scholarships-and-bursaries
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Not in straight
Vay Wilson (31)
So as I understand it, and please put me straight if I am wrong. There are 2 students that did not gain entry to university and did not achieve an HSC either. Wow that was $150k well spent. I wonder what career these two might be chasing? Professional Bag Pipe player In think not.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
formerflanker
Ken Catchpole (46)
An alternative scenario is that those two boys are rugby players doing pathways and will be back on the field for TSC this season.
Without clarity from the school, we are all whistling in the dark.
formerflanker
Ken Catchpole (46)
From a letter to the editor in today's Herald:
"Is anyone surprised the elite Scots school is at the centre of the HSC controversy? Just look at the allegations about how it has achieved sporting success in recent years (wholesale sport scholarships), and the judge's comments regarding the behaviour of parents in rejecting its recent development proposal. To the outsider it reeks of "you can all get stuffed", the end result justifies the means.
Peter Oliver Northbridge"
"Is anyone surprised the elite Scots school is at the centre of the HSC controversy? Just look at the allegations about how it has achieved sporting success in recent years (wholesale sport scholarships), and the judge's comments regarding the behaviour of parents in rejecting its recent development proposal. To the outsider it reeks of "you can all get stuffed", the end result justifies the means.
Peter Oliver Northbridge"
formerflanker
Ken Catchpole (46)
From yesterday's Herald:
While TAFE offers a tertiary preparation course for $700, Sydney Learning charges $12,000 for its diploma, which is typically aimed at mature-age students. It has not disclosed how much it is charging Scots, which is absorbing the cost as part of its school fees, which are up to $33,098 for tuition only, and another $24,121 for boarders.
Not in straight
Vay Wilson (31)
Just for the record, my real name is not Peter Oliver. But I think his olfactory sense is detecting the same pungent rodent.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Some information about the Diploma is readily available here:
http://sydneylearning.nsw.edu.au/course/10507NAT
The course itself seems fairly upfront and transparent. ... ... ... If you know what you are looking for. It has ASQA accreditation under the AQF.
Like a lot of things in life, if you actually know what to look for, and where to look for it, then things from that point on are relatively easy.
If you didn't know that a Diploma in Tertiary Preparation, or Sydney Learning, existed then you wouldn't have gone looking for the webpage linked above.
AS @Former Flanker has posted above, Dr Lambert seems to have arranged to deliver what some parents want.
I liked this line off the web page
:
Gain entry to a university the smart way with Tertiary Preparation courses in Sydney at Sydney Learning.
Probably seemed like a good line to use to promote the diploma at the time the course was added to the Web Site.
Does this issue raise a question about the governance at Sydney University? It seems a little strange that the Academic Board of the University doesn't know too much about the offerings of one of their own wholly owned education providers.
http://sydneylearning.nsw.edu.au/course/10507NAT
The course itself seems fairly upfront and transparent. ... ... ... If you know what you are looking for. It has ASQA accreditation under the AQF.
Like a lot of things in life, if you actually know what to look for, and where to look for it, then things from that point on are relatively easy.
If you didn't know that a Diploma in Tertiary Preparation, or Sydney Learning, existed then you wouldn't have gone looking for the webpage linked above.
AS @Former Flanker has posted above, Dr Lambert seems to have arranged to deliver what some parents want.
I liked this line off the web page
:Gain entry to a university the smart way with Tertiary Preparation courses in Sydney at Sydney Learning.
Probably seemed like a good line to use to promote the diploma at the time the course was added to the Web Site.
Does this issue raise a question about the governance at Sydney University? It seems a little strange that the Academic Board of the University doesn't know too much about the offerings of one of their own wholly owned education providers.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
It seems that universities need more regulation, not less.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
I liked this line off the web page
Gain entry to a university the smart way with Tertiary Preparation courses in Sydney at Sydney Learning.
"The smart way" - is that somehow different from working your arse off studying?
Why do the HSC when you can pay $12,000 and slide straight in?
Tertiary Preparation courses also provide access to career opportunities that would otherwise require a Year 12 qualification.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
What is the story here?
Many parents spend > $25000 pa to increase their kids chances of getting entry into a university course of their choice.
There is an option available of doing similar for only $12000, and that is endorsed by Sydney University (although the university courses available are rather limited), and accredited by ASQA and run by a wholly owned subsidiary of Sydney University, and that course to do that is openly advertised on the internet (if you know what to look for).
Why bother sending your kid to an elite private school. Send them to the local state high school and use $10k per year of government funding to educate your boy (Epping Boys High has income per student of $1k private sources, $9k from NSW Govt and $1.8k from the Commonwealth according to Myschools website data).
Myschools says that Scots College gets < 4k per student per year of State and Federal govt funding, approx $6k less per student per year than the Taxpayer has to fork out for each boy attending Epping Boys High.
Doesn't every kid that goes to Scots save the Government a tonne of money, with the added bonus that the "rich" are paying a very handsome fee for saving the State and Federal budget a stack of money?
The ASQA accredited Diploma of Back Door Entry to Sydney University appears to be available to anyone with $12k.
Many parents spend > $25000 pa to increase their kids chances of getting entry into a university course of their choice.
There is an option available of doing similar for only $12000, and that is endorsed by Sydney University (although the university courses available are rather limited), and accredited by ASQA and run by a wholly owned subsidiary of Sydney University, and that course to do that is openly advertised on the internet (if you know what to look for).
Why bother sending your kid to an elite private school. Send them to the local state high school and use $10k per year of government funding to educate your boy (Epping Boys High has income per student of $1k private sources, $9k from NSW Govt and $1.8k from the Commonwealth according to Myschools website data).
Myschools says that Scots College gets < 4k per student per year of State and Federal govt funding, approx $6k less per student per year than the Taxpayer has to fork out for each boy attending Epping Boys High.
Doesn't every kid that goes to Scots save the Government a tonne of money, with the added bonus that the "rich" are paying a very handsome fee for saving the State and Federal budget a stack of money?
The ASQA accredited Diploma of Back Door Entry to Sydney University appears to be available to anyone with $12k.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
^^^But to do it while you are still at school requires a partnership between school and university or the willingness to undertake and extra 160 hours of study outside of the normal school day.
EDIT: The story probably has little to do with this thread and more to what universities are up to (or one particular university anyway)
EDIT: The story probably has little to do with this thread and more to what universities are up to (or one particular university anyway)
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
There are plenty of kids enrolled at both Private and Public schools doing VTAB courses in Year 12 in lieu of HSC courses, with some even attend the nearest TAFE for that course of study.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
As my eldest son did, which was timetabled into his school time table and counted towards his HSC. Did exams and assessments just like he did for English, History etc. His TAFE subject was treated just the same as all his other school subjects.
This seems completely different to that arrangement
I also couldn't help but notice that according to the Sydney Learning website that you found that the Diploma involves 160 hours of study. We're also told that TSC boys did it in 17 weeks, i.e. just under 10 hours a week or just under 2 hours a day. That's significantly less than 6 hours a day for 7 terms to get an HSC.
Not that either institution are breaking any rules - it seems a mutually beneficial arrangement. People will hold differing views as to whether either should be involved in such a programme - including the SU acacdemic board.
formerflanker
Ken Catchpole (46)
Yes, but think of the extra time during the school day the boys could spend in the hypoxic/hyperbaric/whatever chamber!
Here is a very funny commentary about the back door Uni entry method for Scots boys: http://www.sbs.com.au/comedy/article/2015/04/07/scots-boys-found-be-too-wealthy-take-exams
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
The commentary is certainly quite humourous, andwhat makes it even funnier is that one suspects it is very very close to the true state of things.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Far too quiet.
Read this wide ranging and rather thought provoking article on Auckland (NZ) 1st XV rugby from the NZ Herald on line:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11442568.
On Filming/Streaming 1st XV games:
One school that has taken a contrary stance is Mt Albert Grammar, which hasn't signed up to First XV TV. They don't want TV cameras coming to the school because, principal Dale Burden, says: "We think it's a bit too much. We are talking about 15, 16 and 17-year-old boys and we want them to have some balance at school so they don't think rugby is their life. Once in a while is OK [games being filmed] but we don't want it too much."
Dale Burden, headmaster of Mount Albert Grammar school. Photo / Sarah Ivey
The disproportionate importance it places on rugby is only part of the reason Mt Albert don't want cameras at their grounds.
The other big factor is that Burden is "sick and tired of agents and the rubbish they talk".
"Some of the absolute drivel they tell boys and their families is so far off the mark and the kids believe it. I say to the pupils that, whatever advice they need, there will almost certainly be someone within the school well qualified to give it."
On the joy of 1st XV Rugby
"But before there is too much self-congratulation, Burden makes a point that is impossible to ignore and alludes to how easily the current set-up could slip from being opportunity to threat.
"Secondary school sport remains 100 per cent pure," he says. "When you watch it, you see the players are not frightened of making mistakes. That's how they learn and they are not inhibited. But I wonder if that will still be the case when games are being live-streamed or put on highlights packages."
It's getting harder to persuade students and their parents they are dreaming if they think they are already on the way to the big time."
On the chances of making it to the big show
"Statistics, if ever they were an antidote, aren't so much now. In 2013, the data showed those boys who made the New Zealand Secondary Schools team had a 60 per cent chance of going on to the ITM Cup. Of those 60 per cent, about one-third make it to Super Rugby and, from there, about seven per cent will become All Blacks."
On recruiting
"There is, as the Herald revealed in its investigation of the 1A competition in 2013, extensive luring of good rugby players between schools. There are succession plans for first XVs, good money paid to coaches who are not teachers and rugby scholarships are believed to far outnumber those offered for artistic or academic pursuits.
Budgets for first XVs can be $50,000 a season and, in some cases, significantly more. And that doesn't include the capital expense on gyms, fitness coaches and technological resources.
First XV has probably become a more important stepping stone on the professional pathway than the ITM Cup. It's almost certainly an area of the game with greater commercial and audience potential than the ITM Cup.
What students and parents are also increasingly aware of is that recruitment patterns are changing, and fast. Super Rugby sides are now sniffing about first XV in a way they never were."
Read this wide ranging and rather thought provoking article on Auckland (NZ) 1st XV rugby from the NZ Herald on line:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11442568.
On Filming/Streaming 1st XV games:
One school that has taken a contrary stance is Mt Albert Grammar, which hasn't signed up to First XV TV. They don't want TV cameras coming to the school because, principal Dale Burden, says: "We think it's a bit too much. We are talking about 15, 16 and 17-year-old boys and we want them to have some balance at school so they don't think rugby is their life. Once in a while is OK [games being filmed] but we don't want it too much."
Dale Burden, headmaster of Mount Albert Grammar school. Photo / Sarah Ivey
The disproportionate importance it places on rugby is only part of the reason Mt Albert don't want cameras at their grounds.
The other big factor is that Burden is "sick and tired of agents and the rubbish they talk".
"Some of the absolute drivel they tell boys and their families is so far off the mark and the kids believe it. I say to the pupils that, whatever advice they need, there will almost certainly be someone within the school well qualified to give it."
On the joy of 1st XV Rugby
"But before there is too much self-congratulation, Burden makes a point that is impossible to ignore and alludes to how easily the current set-up could slip from being opportunity to threat.
"Secondary school sport remains 100 per cent pure," he says. "When you watch it, you see the players are not frightened of making mistakes. That's how they learn and they are not inhibited. But I wonder if that will still be the case when games are being live-streamed or put on highlights packages."
It's getting harder to persuade students and their parents they are dreaming if they think they are already on the way to the big time."
On the chances of making it to the big show
"Statistics, if ever they were an antidote, aren't so much now. In 2013, the data showed those boys who made the New Zealand Secondary Schools team had a 60 per cent chance of going on to the ITM Cup. Of those 60 per cent, about one-third make it to Super Rugby and, from there, about seven per cent will become All Blacks."
On recruiting
"There is, as the Herald revealed in its investigation of the 1A competition in 2013, extensive luring of good rugby players between schools. There are succession plans for first XVs, good money paid to coaches who are not teachers and rugby scholarships are believed to far outnumber those offered for artistic or academic pursuits.
Budgets for first XVs can be $50,000 a season and, in some cases, significantly more. And that doesn't include the capital expense on gyms, fitness coaches and technological resources.
First XV has probably become a more important stepping stone on the professional pathway than the ITM Cup. It's almost certainly an area of the game with greater commercial and audience potential than the ITM Cup.
What students and parents are also increasingly aware of is that recruitment patterns are changing, and fast. Super Rugby sides are now sniffing about first XV in a way they never were."