School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[Quick Hands]

Shore planned to do it in the final round at Stanmore but needed support from Joeys to do the same at Bellevue Hill, which they didn't get. Lets be honest here, none of the headmasters care about basketball, this is just an excuse to target both Scots and Newington before the 2014 rugby season.

Although looking at the results through the age groups (see NC v Shore post #2961) there doesn't seem a big chance that NC will be repeating the 2012/2013 results in 1st XV.

 

[CatchnPass]

Oh so you are one of his parents?

Well your honour, if the rules of your inquisition will permit a relaxation of the hearsay rule for second hand testimony, I was told this by his parents, who are justifiably proud. This and numerous other scholarships are openly known and discussed on the sidelines of GPS and Gordon juniors matches week in and week out. Btw, if only recipients' parents were permitted to discuss such matters this thread would be 140+ pages shorter.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Um CatchnPass, under that rule the thread would be called "Proud Parents Thread".

We already have one.

Lots of assumptions are made about Scholarships and Busaries. Lots of people on sidelines will intimate that their little Johnny is on a busary etc when they are paying full fee simply to impress others. Others make assumptions about the nature of the "bursary" when they hear that word.

For example, one of my lads was at a party the other night, and one of the guests there was mouthing off to him about how he was in Newington 1st XV, NSW Schoolboys AND in Sydney Uni Colts 1sts this year. Funnily enough a quick browse through any of these team lists does not reveal a name that features on all three, nor was this boys name on any one of them.

This kid isn't Robinson Crusoe in either misrepresenting or over-inflating his achievements. Have you ever read CV's of job applicants?

I can recall back in the day not long after the movie Top Gun came out, nearly every 20 something year old boy in certain entertainment precincts was claiming to be down in Sydney on leave from RAAF Williamtown where they flew FA-18s. Each one of the 10 or so planes up there would have had about 1000 pilots allocated to fly it! I digress.

Many of the fee relief/bursary/scholarships for imports are not fully gratis, and as far as I know, these are quite rare, even for the worst serial offenders.

Many are expressed as a x% reduction in fees, or simply "you just pay us what you were paying at <insert other private school>".

Here is a poser for today for those interested in hypertheticals:

Consider a boy at school x. Parents paying full freight in Year 7 and 8 with intentions of refinancing the house each year when the annual demand for a 5% increase in fees arrives each year from School X. Little Johnny makes Sydney Junior U15 and NSW Junior U15 in Year 9. School X is impressed with his achievements and they (or a third party associated with that school) decide to offer some form of fee relief (pick a figure between 5% and 100%) doesn't matter. The parents accept that kind offer from the school/third party.

Does this scenario breach of the AAGPS Heads of School Agreement? The boy was already enrolled at the school, so there was no inducement offered to get him to enrol. He was not imported from another school, or a late entry to that school.

Tin Foil Hat time, Here's how it works. Inspired by the Sydney Uni Player points reduction strategy. Get the families in and paying full fees for their first year at the college, preferrably Year 7 but could be year 10. Offer the scholarship/bursary/fee reduction/subsidy in subsequent years. This works well with those families who can (just) afford to stump up with one or two years fees, but I need to think more about how a plausibly deniable booster arrangement could work for those unable/unwilling to stump up with the cash for the first year.

If you can find some old boys prepared to pay $100k for an oxygen tent, then I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be too hard to implement the above.

It comes down to honour and ethics, and the value placed on winning games as opposed to developing young men.

 

[fpiglet]

In many ways I find this a complicated discussion. This is a public, non Green & Gold, contribution to the debate - http://belshaw.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/saturday-morning-musings-school-sport.html

Love reading everything so far. Great drama both kinds.... cloak AND dagger!
As someone who has been involved with the 'other' footy code on a professional basis in the media side for twenty five years I have to agree with you Jim. When I watched that video I was impressed with the standard of play and power of the boys (at least the backs - the forwards don't feature much) was up there with any NRL team and I've watched countless NRL games on tape, spooled back and forth, slowed down, gone through ISO reels etc. New were definitely up there.

I'm not so much against a professional approach to coaching and recovery, I think all boys benefit from that whatever grade they end up playing but the picking and choosing is, as we can see, another matter.

 

[fpiglet]

Would be a very strange strategy, given

- Joeys lost on the bell in the first round against Scots
- Shore in the first round, if IIRC were in front at oranges and went down 37 - 20

Given first round results they couldn't have seriously contemplated this.

I agree. When I was at the Scots v Joeys game at BH, I was introduced to two locals who were ex GPS old boys from schools not involved on the day who had wandered up to see if Joeys could knock them over. Looked like the neighbours weren't exactly cheering the local team. Joeys went in with the right intention but didn't pan out. There was no way they weren't going to play.

 

[fpiglet]

On another note, I'm not sure whether the two round system in GPS rugby will survive. They've committed for two years (2013 & 2104) but I wouldn't be surprised if things change again given recent developments. I felt sorry for Shore... they weren't a bad team but there's only so much looking at the back of the goalposts you can handle over ten rounds... reminded me of a season at the Dirty Reds!

 

[Quick Hands]

I agree. When I was at the Scots v Joeys game at BH, I was introduced to two locals who were ex GPS old boys from schools not involved on the day who had wandered up to see if Joeys could knock them over. Looked like the neighbours weren't exactly cheering the local team. Joeys went in with the right intention but didn't pan out. There was no way they weren't going to play.

They might have been part of the Concerned Scots Neighbours Group.

 

[Quick Hands]

On another note, I'm not sure whether the two round system in GPS rugby will survive. They've committed for two years (2013 & 2104) but I wouldn't be surprised if things change again given recent developments. I felt sorry for Shore. they weren't a bad team but there's only so much looking at the back of the goalposts you can handle over ten rounds. reminded me of a season at the Dirty Reds!

I'd heard that it might not even make 2014.

 

[Quick Hands]

Was that our own rugby mum in today's SMH?

 

[Muglair]

Fermat obviously would not be able to solve this complicated equation.

With Tim Hawkes' fearless contribution this week the major problem is clearly the lack of credibility of the AAGPS. They have been happy to have a sanitised and purified code of practice regarding sports scholarships (has anyone yet explained the difference between academic, musical, cultural and sporting scholarships and their relative importance in the development of the well rounded and educated teenage boy?) while selectively ignoring the rules themselves.

As noted by someone else the best defence against abuse is transparency and I suspect just making everything open and allowing scrutiny by the stakeholders (boys, parents, teachers. old boys and where applicable the church or other sponsoring body) will be more effective than some very convoluted and complex set of regulations which will never be perfect.

An article in the Tele today features the views of the parent of the only (supposedly) boy in the Top 20 Scots basketballers who joined Scots after Year 10. Despite the ability of the son (Aust U19) he apparently pays full fees. The claim is that 19% of boys at Scots are on some form of means tested scholarships.

If subsequent investigation shows that successful sportsmen are being treated no differently to other boys without sporting prowess then this all turns out to be a storm in a tea cup. Except where the Gang of Five have called the integrity of another school and headmaster into question. Not to mention the questions now raised about public funding of private schools.

Well played Sirs

 

[fpiglet]

Um CatchnPass, under that rule the thread would be called "Proud Parents Thread".

We already have one.

Lots of assumptions are made about Scholarships and Busaries. Lots of people on sidelines will intimate that their little Johnny is on a busary etc when they are paying full fee simply to impress others. Others make assumptions about the nature of the "bursary" when they hear that word.....

It comes down to honour and ethics, and the value placed on winning games as opposed to developing young men.

When it comes to bursaries administered by Old Boy Associations/Unions, they are generally straightforward. Old Boy bursaries are primarily there to support the sons of Old Boys who don't have the financial means or are experiencing various difficulties. If they support someone who is the son of an Old Boy and has shown talent in any field, rugby, music or whatever then I think that's fine as they still have look at means testing it. Old Boy bursaries with some schools aren't bottomless moneypits. If they're being used for kids who aren't sons of Old Boys, well, that may be questionable. That would explain why some kids are at certain schools and not others and I don't see that as a major issue.

With regard to developing young men, how many of the rugby 1sts are also repping their school in summer sports? I always sold to my wife the 'all round domination excellence" of the GPS system. Any ideas on who also repped their school in cricket, rowing, basketball etc. or, perhaps, more conspicuously didn't?

 

[CatchnPass]

Um CatchnPass, under that rule the thread would be called "Proud Parents Thread".

We already have one.

Lots of assumptions are made about Scholarships and Busaries. Lots of people on sidelines will intimate that their little Johnny is on a busary etc when they are paying full fee simply to impress others. Others make assumptions about the nature of the "bursary" when they hear that word.]

HJ, that is of course possible, but his Dad is a very straight shooter - a Naval commander - and talked about the process in sufficient detail to convince me and other reasonably cynical judges that there is at least some measure of financial assistance at play.

As for the poser, it seems counter-intuitive that, the boy already being enrolled, the school would be at all incentivised to offer a cracker. I suppose if there was a suggestion he was being courted by others it may be different. In any event, whether the incentive was offered to enrol or to stay enrolled, it would, I think, be a breach.

Apologies for technical glitch including my response to HJs post

 

[random2]

Any ideas on who also repped their school in cricket, rowing, basketball etc. or, perhaps, more conspicuously didn't?

Joeys
Matt Sandell - Captain of Boats/Captain of Rugby
Andrew Deegan - Captain of Cricket/Vice Captain of Rugby
Ned Hanigan - 1st VIII/1st XV/GPS Athletics
Tierney Glasson - GPS Athletics/1st XV Rugby
Tim McCutcheon - GPS Athletics/1st XV
Pat Curtain - 1st VIII/1st XV
Patrick O'Brien - 1st XI/1st XV
Rory Gallagher - 1st XI/1st XV
Pat O'Doherty - 1st Water Polo/1st XV

 

[Muglair]

This is another interesting way of looking at the situation. Still more grist for the circular mill.

How does one interpret the following scenarios:
Scots 1st X / Scots 1st XV
Scots 1st X / GPS Athletics
Scots 1st X / Scots 3rd XV
Scots 1st X / nothing

Under this theory we might think that the first two boys are not imports but all rounders. I think this maybe questionable, these boys are athletes and representing the school in two or more sports is not unrealistic. Fitness/attitude/prowess/agility etc get you a long way in any sport at any level.

The boy playing 3rds could look like an import, he is only good at basketball. Still is it that bad that he is happy to play sport at another level.

The ones not playing? One sport specialist import? Injured? Parents thinking he should focus on HSC study after all that basket ball training?

All speculation, no one actually has the facts. There is only one answer and that is some transparency.

 

[GPSrow]

Newington 1st XV - Sporting Summer and Winter

1. Vunipola - GPS Athletics - Shotput
2. Serhorn - Rowing - 4th IV
3. Mesui - GPS Athletics - Shotput
4. Anthony Vasilis - Injured in summer season.
5. Prassas - Basketball - 1sts
6. Morris - Cricket - 1st XI
7. Mill - Crossfit
8. Cannell - Cricket - 1st XI
9. Joey Lussick - GPS swimming - Rugby league in summer
10. Lachlan Anderson - Cricket - 1st XI
11. Sepesa - GPS Athletics - Track.
12. Abrahams - Crossfit.
13. Tepai - GPS Athletics - Shotput - Rugby league in summer.
14. Kennewell - GPS Athletics - Rowing - 4th IV
15. Tanne - Rugby League in summer - Crossfit.

Reserves

Josh Mitchell - 1sts Basketball - GPS Athletics

 

[Hugh Jarse]

That is of course possible, but his Dad is a very straight shooter - a Naval commander - and talked about the process in sufficient detail to convince me and other reasonably cynical judges that there is at least some measure of financial assistance at play.

As for the poser, it seems counter-intuitive that, the boy already being enrolled, the school would be at all incentivised to offer a cracker. I suppose if there was a suggestion he was being courted by others it may be different. In any event, whether the incentive was offered to enrol or to stay enrolled, it would, I think, be a breach.

I am sure that the situation with the Naval Commanders boy is precisely as you report, and my comment about the misinterpretations on the sidelines are of a more general nature.

I know of one family where one of the parents will let it drop that their son is on a rugby scholarship to impress people. The other parent is constantly whinging about school fees. I know which one I believe. Another Dad will tell all and sundry that their boy was offered full scholarships at <deleted> but they chose to stay at <deleted> even though it is costing them an arm and a leg. Much of what is said on the sidelines is more aligned to the works of Barbara Cartland than a peer reviewed author of an article in the British Medical Journal.

Interesting about the response to the Tin Foil Hat proposal.
CatchnPass says that some inducement to stay at the school is in breach of the AACPS code of conduct.

The Code of Practice says:
a. No inducements such as sporting scholarships, whether direct, disguised, or at arm's length, shall be offered by any member school. Financial assistance to talented sportsmen shall not form part of the enrolment strategy of any member school.
Comment: The "scholarship"bursary/fee reduction/incentive to stay enrolled is not in breach of the second sentence. Could be in breach of the first sentence. Would probably cost $550 per hour in 6 minute blocks to settle that one.

b. We affirm that the Headmaster of each school is responsible for knowing the special circumstances relating to the admission of boys to his school.
Comment: Got away with that one. The boy is already enrolled. "Pretty sure the family was paying. Here is the receipt".

c. In the selection and training of boys in teams or crews, the good of the individual boy shall remain paramount.
Comment: Clean skins here. The individual is good, and it it to the good of the indivudual that he plays in the firsts (or A's).

d. While allowing for some exceptional circumstances, we believe that it is poor educational practice for a boy to engage in a single sport throughout the year.

Comment: Clean skins here. The boy swims, or runs, or does something in the summer. He may not be any good at it. He may also attend off season rugby training but the code of practice does not exclude an off season skills development.

 

[Quick Hands]

d. While allowing for some exceptional circumstances, we believe that it is poor educational practice for a boy to engage in a single sport throughout the year.

Comment: Clean skins here. The boy swims, or runs, or does something in the summer. He may not be any good at it. He may also attend off season rugby training but the code of practice does not exclude an off season skills development.

Perhaps, but the intention of this would be that boys played a summer sport and a winter sport not just "do something". There is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that boys who genuinely play 2 or more different sports, will actually progress much better at there chosen sport as their brains and bodies have to learn a range of skills not just a single skill set. There was an expert quoted in one of the SMH articles this week who said this as well. To say nothing of the social aspect of perhaps playing with some different people at a sport where you aren't under the same pressure, because you're not one of the stars.

 

[Quick Hands]

An article in the Tele today features the views of the parent of the only (supposedly) boy in the Top 20 Scots basketballers who joined Scots after Year 10. Despite the ability of the son (Aust U19) he apparently pays full fees. The claim is that 19% of boys at Scots are on some form of means tested scholarships.

I agree with most of your post.

I did pick up this small part which you repeated from the DT article. Writing the piece on a boy who joined "after Year 10" seems to be a deliberate choice (by TSC?). I wonder how many joined in Years 9 & 10?

You wouldn't think that the 5 would be making such a fuss over 1 boy.

Almost 20% of boys at the school paying less than the scheduled fees sounds a lot. No wonder their fees are the highest in the GPS, that's a fairly large group to subsidise.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Quick Hands, I think both here, and in Brisbane, and at at least one Melbourne school we have seen far too many examples of "poor educational practice" in relation to interschool games regardless of how it is sugar coated by the various Principals.

The glitter of silver, the associated and reflected glory of a premiership has overcome several hundred years of sound educational practices that have been passed down in classic traditions.

The sport is clearly better, but is the product the schools produce as a result?

 

[lincoln]

Another one from twitter God, which ALMOST had applicability to some posters on this thread: "People in glass houses should not throw orgies"

Stop winding up IS and cyclo re Grammar's win. Seeing as you are a fan of God, how about today's quote:
"The thing to remember about assholes is, they're assholes"