SANZAR/Super rugby future format

[Harfish]

Just thought I'd chip in and shamelessly promote my suggestion for the Super 15.

Link

If anyone has any suggestions/criticisms, I'd be happy to hear them.

 

[PaarlBok]

Harfish think the conferense idea sucks.

How can teams not playing the same matches end up on a same log?

The best one will be to let SA/Aus?NZ play their full house CC/NPC/? and let the top 4/3 goes to S9/12 and plays each other like in the S12.

My solution
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/forum/index.php/topic,8877.0.html

 

[Scarfman]

My quick response to Harfish's conference system is that it needs to be MORE like the NFL. I agree with Paarl that they can't play inside conferences then end up on the same log. They need to play in 3 conferences, and the top 2 from each conference go through, leaving 6 finalists.

The teams from the Aussie conference would play each other home and away, and teams from the 2 other conferences just once. Meaning a regular season of 17 games and a post-season of 3 weeks.

The competition goes from 15 weeks to 21 weeks, including byes.

Problem solved.

 

[Harfish]

Thanks for the feedback guys, clearly I didn't make my plan clear enough. I modeled my conference idea on the NFL's divisions. The divisional winners in each conference (AFC & NFC) are ranked in the top three seeds for the playoffs while the fourth division winner and wild card teams are ranked fourth through sixth based on their number of wins, as the NFL lacks a points system. This is why the Waratahs would be ranked third in my system going into the playoffs.

Each NFL conference then plays a six team playoff with the first and second ranked teams getting a first round bye, and the eventual conference champions play in the Super Bowl.

The other interesting thing about the NFL is that you don't even play all the teams in your conference at least once per season, and may go years without playing certain teams from the other conferences.

So regardless of conference/divisional play, you have to have some method of ranking the teams at the end of the season. Winning your conference guarantees you a top three place, regardless of points, and a home quarterfinal/preliminary final in my system (personally I'd like to see the AFL's playoff structure used).

The problem with running three conferences is that at the end of the regular season there is no way to hold playoffs without ranking teams. If there were two conferences, further split into two divisions each you could have the top two teams from each division play, then the winners play for the conference championship and then the Super Ruby Bowl, but with three conferences you're stuck.

Plus I think Super Rugby needs more local derbies, hence the home and away fixtures within nations.

 

[Scarfman]

OK, then we completely agree. The thing about the NFL, as you point out, is that not all teams have an equally difficult draw. Some years you find yourself playing crap teams and other years good teams. It's the luck of the draw, literally. At least in the S15, we could say that this issue is minimised.

Obviously some rules need to be invented regarding #wins, or bonus points, or for/against, but I don't see a huge problem with finals seedings.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

OK, then we completely agree. The thing about the NFL, as you point out, is that not all teams have an equally difficult draw. Some years you find yourself playing crap teams and other years good teams. It's the luck of the draw, literally. At least in the S15, we could say that this issue is minimised.
Obviously some rules need to be invented regarding #wins, or bonus points, or for/against, but I don't see a huge problem with finals seedings.

How about if we take the end of season (pre semis) order, number off and odds form one conference and evens form a second conferance. As in the NFL - teams don't only play other teams in their own conference so again we have each team

Ah forget it, just play each other once as we do, it's now a 15 week tournament and semi's as they are.
Then break fro the mid winter break, come back for tests and local provincial comps - oh yeah - we don't have one do we. Oh well, the Kiwi's and yarpies can have their provincial comp and we can have.... - what exactly do we have?

 

[PaarlBok]

How about if we take the end of season (pre semis) order, number off and odds form one conference and evens form a second conferance. As in the NFL - teams don't only play other teams in their own conference so again we have each team

Ah forget it, just play each other once as we do, it's now a 15 week tournament and semi's as they are.
Then break fro the mid winter break, come back for tests and local provincial comps - oh yeah - we don't have one do we. Oh well, the Kiwi's and yarpies can have their provincial comp and we can have.... - what exactly do we have?

Ja thats the big problem, isnt it?

What is NFL?

 

[Biffo]

Morning, PB. You are up bright and early.

"NFL" stands for National Football League (of the USA), I think.

I really like the conference system, provided that each team plays all teams in the other two conferences. Perhaps boring, but let's have a look at what would happen.

1. Three conferences, one in each country, of five teams each.
2. Each team plays all the others in its conference twice, home and away.
3. Each team plays every team in the other two conferences once, either home or away.
4. Finals series for 6 teams. Bottom four play one game each to reduce their number to 2, while top two have a bye. Then, 1 plays winner of 3 and 6 and 2 plays winner of 4 and 5. The two winners meet in the final.
5. The intra conference games take 8 weeks. The inter conference games take 10 weeks. The finals series takes 3 weeks. Add in one bye for each team and the whole thing takes 22 weeks.

My likes are:

a. More derbies, with the probability of serious ferocity towards the end of the intra conference series.
b. A higher proportion of games played without international travel which has two benefits - better performance by players and lower average cost of games.
c. The top teams in each conference are rewarded for their domestic superiority - by carrying more points into the inter conference series.
d. More sudden death games at the end.

I have no particular dislikes.

 

[Blue]

Morning, PB. You are up bright and early.

"NFL" stands for National Football League (of the USA), I think.

I really like the conference system, provided that each team plays all teams in the other two conferences. Perhaps boring, but let's have a look at what would happen.

1. Three conferences, one in each country, of five teams each.
2. Each team plays all the others in its conference twice, home and away.
3. Each team plays every team in the other two conferences once, either home or away.
4. Finals series for 6 teams. Bottom four play one game each to reduce their number to 2, while top two have a bye. Then, 1 plays winner of 3 and 6 and 2 plays winner of 4 and 5. The two winners meet in the final.
5. The intra conference games take 8 weeks. The inter conference games take 10 weeks. The finals series takes 3 weeks. Add in one bye for each team and the whole thing takes 22 weeks.

My likes are:

a. More derbies, with the probability of serious ferocity towards the end of the intra conference series.
b. A higher proportion of games played without international travel which has two benefits - better performance by players and lower average cost of games.
c. The top teams in each conference are rewarded for their domestic superiority - by carrying more points into the inter conference series.
d. More sudden death games at the end.

I have no particular dislikes.

Seems fair. But:

Problem is still the question of whether SA wants more local derbies. The answer I think is no. The Currie Cup already has them. Now we add one more. To me it's just too much of the same. The fans are likely to vote with their feet at and their remotes. There is also the Vodcaom Cup, a tier 2 comp running in parallel to the Super XX. That's a development ground. And it's yet more local derbies.

I also canlt see particularly good TV ratings for local derbies in the other two countries. People in Aus don't want to watch Lions v Cheetahs (come to think of it nobody does). Now there are more games they don't want to see.

While a model like that has a lot of merit, it adds nothing for SA and NZ (in fact it complicates a cluttered season even more). We are back at square one where Aus is by far the main beneficiary of expansion and I just canlt see what NZ and SA gain at all.

PS from memory the NFL conference season only has one game in the local conference, not home and away. The main logic behind conferences is to get to semi-finals / regional champions and then Super Bowl. There are two regions - AFC and NFC with four conferences in each. That's why it works. We have three regions.

 

[PaarlBok]

Thanks manne, now I am more on the right track.

After watching our two local derbies this weekend, Cheetahs vs Stormers & Sharks vs Brutes I think the local derbies will always popular in SA. This come a long, long way and it always bring the best out of our players. The Lions tour and a Springbok jumper just add the feul I think.

 

[Biffo]

Blue and PB, I take your point about local derbies possibly being overdone. I don't think that threat is real.

S15 will be, as were S10,S12 and S14, way above the standard of the RSA and NZ provincial competitions - at the top, they will be of the standard of tests between countries outside the top five in the world which are RSA, NZ, Australia, England and France. This comes about for RSA and NZ because their Snn teams combine provinces - am I right in saying that NZ combines 20 provinces into 5 S14 "franchise" (I hate that word) and RSA 14 provinces into 5?

The local derbies in S15 will be different to province local derbies. I believe that the conference system will build far stronger identity and following for the five teams in the S15, especially if you throw in a few extras such as challenge cups and annual cups for games between two teams. The "Bakkies Botha Perpetual Trophy" for Bulls v Sharks or the Al Baxter Trophy for Bulls v Tahs resonate with you?

I think that, in all the hullabaloo leading to the final decision, not enough was made of the great value of S14/15 as the level below tests. I think too many critics - and I am not in any way including PB among them, because he clearly sees the hierarchy from test to S14/15 to provinve to club to school as the correct structure - equated province and S14/15 at the same level and with the same interests.

S14/15 is where our (RSA, NZ, OZ) best players really sharpen their talents and minds for the step up to tests. It is far too valuable in that sense to be lost.

 

[PaarlBok]

This comes about for RSA and NZ because their Snn teams combine provinces - am I right in saying that NZ combines 20 provinces into 5 S14 "franchise" (I hate that word) and RSA 14 provinces into 5?

The local derbies in S15 will be different to province local derbies. I believe that the conference system will build far stronger identity and following for the five teams in the S15, especially if you throw in a few extras such as challenge cups and annual cups for games between two teams. The "Bakkies Botha Perpetual Trophy" for Bulls v Sharks or the Al Baxter Trophy for Bulls v Tahs resonate with you?

Nope there is a huge difference to the NZ version. In NZ you have central contracting and in SA the players bread and butter is provinces. Central only for the top 30 Springbokke.

Its suppose to be like that but it dont happen. Thats why we want that 6th team because you'll find a lot of experiense players in the small provinces not being use.

You'll find at most 6 players from the smaller CC provinces (including Griquas) being use for S14 rugby.

A good indicator is the Royal team that will play against the UK & Irish Lions

Royal XV squad:

Backs: Russell Jeacocks (Leopards), Colin Lloyd (Leopards), Egon Seconds (Griquas), Bjorn Basson (Griquas), Deon van Rensburg (Leopards), Basil de Doncker (Leopards), Hanno Coetzee (Griquas), Riaan Viljoen (Griquas), Naas Olivier (Griquas), Michael Bondesio (Leopards), Jacques Coetzee (Pumas), Sarel Pretorius (Griquas).

Forwards: Jonathan Mokoena (Griquas), RW Kember (Leopards), Devon Raubenheimer (Griquas), Wilhelm Koch (Leopards, captain), Jaco Bouwer (Pumas), Rynard Landman (Leopards), Rudi Mathee (Leopards), Jacques Lombard (Griquas), Bees Roux (Griquas), Albertus Buckle (Griquas), Dawie Steyn (Pumas), Stef Roberts (Griquas), Rayno Barnes (Griquas), Hannes Franklin (Pumas), Pellow van der Westhuizen (Leopards).

All of them not first picks for S14 rugby and towards the end. This is the top team, now add Boland & SWD and you'll find some good players not used by the Stormers.

 

[Gagger]

Here it is the new format (From Heavensgame)

SUPER RUGBY EXPANSION FULL DETAILS
Print E-mail
Tuesday, 19 May 2009
The new structure for Super Rugby has been announced by all three unions involved, namely Australia, New Zealand and Soutrh Africa. Super Rugby is moving to a conference format -- three conferences with five teams in each

The Australian Conference will house the new team ? the 15th team ? with the location of that team to be decided by the SANZAR Board (a tender process will take place)

Home and away local derbies will be played within each conference

This means in Australia, local derbies content will increase from the current 6 matches to 20 matches (on the proviso the 5th team to be added to the Australian conference is an Australian side)

All up, there will be 40 Super Rugby matches played in Australia as opposed to the current 26 (providing the 5th team in the Australian conference is an Australian side)

Apart from playing each of the other four teams in their conference home and away, sides will also play across conferences

They play eight of the 10 sides in the other two conferences on a home OR away basis

Australian teams, for instance, will play four of the five sides in the NZ conference (two at home, two away), and four of the five sides in the South African conference (two at home, two away)

The Super Rugby season will run from February to August (except in a Rugby World Cup year when it will start and finish earlier)

This will give each team 16 games per regular season with a six-team finals series to follow

Super Rugby expansion enables Australia to be more competitive with the other football codes for length of season

There will be three-weeks of byes in June during Super Rugby to allow the inbound Tests to be played

After the June internationals there will be a further three rounds of Super Rugby played before the finals series

In a further SANZAR initiative, Tri Nations will undergo a revamp in terms of placement in the calendar
Tri Nations will also create ?same time same place? Tests

Tri Nations will always start in South Africa and Australia will always host the opening Bledisloe Cup game in early September (except in a World Cup year when it will be earlier)

In a regular season the Tri Nations will finish with the second and third Bledisloe Cup games ? the last Bledisloe will alternate between Australia and New Zealand (depending on which country is hosting two Bledisloe Cup Tests that year)

Revenue and cost sharing for the new competition will also be split evenly between the three countries



THE SIX-TEAM FINALS SERIES

The three Conference winners and three wildcard teams with the highest number of competition points from any Conference qualify for the playoffs.

The wildcard teams and the Conference winner with the least competition points will play an elimination round to meet the two Conference winners with the greatest number of competition points in the semi-finals.

In other words: 1 and 2 progress straight to the semi finals while 3 v 6 and 4 v 5 will play eliminator finals matches in the first week of the playoffs. The following week 1 and 2 play the winners of the elimination finals. The winners of those two semi finals advance to the final.

 

[PaarlBok]

Think it sucks. Now its 4 games against the other conferences. :

 

[Scarfman]

It's sort of my suggestion, above, isn't it? Or harfish's. Pretty obvious solution, I haven't got a major problem with it.

The only odd thing is the wildcard system. I would have preferred 2 from each conference, then seeding based on wins, etc. To me, this means that you are not really in a conference system at all - you are competing against all teams for a spot in the finals.

Also, I agree with PB - they should play ALL other teams once. I guess they ran into scheduling problems.

 

[Blue]

It's sort of my suggestion, above, isn't it? Or harfish's. Pretty obvious solution, I haven't got a major problem with it.

The only odd thing is the wildcard system. I would have preferred 2 from each conference, then seeding based on wins, etc. To me, this means that you are not really in a conference system at all - you are competing against all teams for a spot in the finals.

Also, I agree with PB - they should play ALL other teams once. I guess they ran into scheduling problems.

From an Australian perspective you couldn't have a problem with it. It's perfect. More top level rugby, product to compete with boofball and AFL towards the end of their seasons. Jon got what he wanted.

I see absolutely no value whatsoever in this for New Zealand and South Africa. Itss shifting some local games that would have happened in the Currie Cup into the S14 and then wait, they play them again in the Currie Cup.

It's just too much rugby. The thing is already too long. Now it's just ridiculous.

Biffo:
I see where you are coming from but the issue is that there is no real difference between the Bulls and Sharks in the S14 vs the Currie Cup. It's just about the same teams towards the end of the CC when the EOYT is over. The intensity levels are no different either. Australia needs more rugby at that level. SA didn't really need it.

You say this:

"The local derbies in S15 will be different to province local derbies. I believe that the conference system will build far stronger identity and following for the five teams in the S15"

The Bulls Sharks etc do not need to build any more identity than they already have.

SA don't need Challenge Cups etc etc etc. It has a Currie Cup.

You are looking at the thing through your Aussie tinted glasses, which is fair. No local competition. No real interstate rugby competition and "provincial" level rivalry of any significance. Those glasses don't fit in the other countries.

I think the whole thing will settle down over time but for now, it looks like SA has sold it's soul but it had absolutely no choice.

 

[Lindommer]

Biffo:
I see where you are coming from but the issue is that there is no real difference between the Bulls and Sharks in the S14 vs the Currie Cup. It's just about the same teams towards the end of the CC when the EOYT is over. The intensity levels are no different either. Australia needs more rugby at that level. SA didn't really need it.

You say this: "The local derbies in S15 will be different to province local derbies. I believe that the conference system will build far stronger identity and following for the five teams in the S15". The Bulls Sharks etc do not need to build any more identity than they already have. SA don't need Challenge Cups etc etc etc. It has a Currie Cup. You are looking at the thing through your Aussie tinted glasses, which is fair. No local competition. No real interstate rugby competition and "provincial" level rivalry of any significance. Those glasses don't fit in the other countries.

I think the whole thing will settle down over time but for now, it looks like SA has sold its soul but it had absolutely no choice.

Blue, you may feel as though SAf rugby has sold its soul, but at least it's got the money from selling the Currie Cup TV rights. Past broadcasting arrangements factored in a premium to both SAf and NZ as they have a level of rugby Australia doesn't, viz, Currie Cup and NPC/ANZC. The initial Super TV deal disadvantaged Australia as they received less than 33%. This was rectified in the second deal when NZ and SAf took their domestic competitions to broadcasters apart from the SANZAR agreement. What JON has the shits about this time is SAf's attempt to have its cake and eat it: selling the Currie Cup rights BEFORE the next SANZAR TV deal negotiations and using that as a contractual impediment to meaningful discussion.

As I have constantly harped on about on this thread: we're all in SANZAR together, we NEED each other. After the recent announcement of the English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh Club Cup to be played during the autumn internationals and the 6 Nations, there's absolutely no chance of Saffer involvement in NH rugby. Not that there ever was.

 

[Blue]

Lindnommer:

The NH route was a bluff. It always was. Much like the Pacific comp was. Dickheads negotiating. What so you expect?

I agree thought that we're in this together and never wanted SA to get out.

The simple fact is that SA and NZ have had to completely compromise to give Australia a local comp to compete with Bonkball PLUS share the money equally. You can't get away from that.

I don't like the new format. It's too much rugby and we are bloating this tier of rugby for the sake of money. It's probably the right thing to do but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

More Reds / Force, Melbourne Rugrats / Reds, Cheetahs/Lions bore-a-thons. Whoopeedoo. Let's see of the broadcaster wants to pay for it.

 

[Biffo]

You are looking at the thing through your Aussie tinted glasses.

Can I use that point against you when I can't refute your logic? :lmao:

The Currie Cup is far, far from what so many South Africans try to project to the outside world. They don't tell us of the appalling standards (and corresponding empty stadia) for a substantial part of the tournament, do they?

Most Enzedders made similar emotive "our NPC is sacrosanct" statements when S10 was conceived and then upped to S12 and S14. They are not so sure now, are they? Tana UMugger, when captain of the NZ national team and while expansin from 12 to 14 teams was being discussed, stated that he preferred to scrap S12 and just have the NPC!! Someone quietly told him what his wages would be with (1) no S rugby (2) S12 (3) S14. He was instantly converted to a fervent believer in S14. Strange, that.

The harsh reality of elite professional players with limited working lives rightly seeking the most for themselves and competition among clubs for entertainers will dictate where the rugby structure heads. I applaud efforts to bring in more money to enable top talent - and I'm not writing of the broken down old folk who go to Yurope to get their pensions - to be retained in the SANZAR group. Start from a scenario of RSA having Tests and the Currie Cup only and work out what players' payments would be. Then compare those with what is available in Yurope. Who would play in the Currie Cup? Schoolboys? Then go on and repeat the exercise for the various Super rugby options. You will get a surprise.

There is nothing in the S15 for RSA and NZ??? That is a joke, surely. There are huge incremental gains for RSA and NZ:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Geddit?

 

[Blue]

You are looking at the thing through your Aussie tinted glasses.

Can I use that point against you when I can't refute your logic? :lmao:

Silly. That would have applied if it's all I said.

OK let me rephrase in a soft and more diplomatic way because I seem to always uncover your sensitive side.

"You are drawing conclusions from the situation wearing an Australian hat and with Australia's best interests at heart."

I was not trying to use it to refute anything by playing the man.

Quite right. There's prob 60% of the Currie Cup that's not well attended, but an SA fan will tell you that the other 40% more than makes up for it.

Where did I say there is nothing in the S15 for SA? You seriously need to read posts before shooting your mouth off.

I think a large part of what's pissing me off is again echoed in your post. You have no interest in acknowledging the fact that SA and NZ have other comps that they care about. It's easy to shoot holes in any comp / structure etc.

Conclusion: Jon gave Australian rugby what it needed, got a bigger share of the pie than before, and left SA and NZ trying to figure out how the fuck to keep their local comps goign in a smaller window. I don't know why you canlt just bloody acknowledge that. Come on. Say you concede. Then we can stop arguing.