S18 on its way

[Quick Hands]

Its an evolving issue..

With things continuing the way they are it will eventually get to the point where South Africa will be demanding their 24th team just to satisfy every fraction of rugby union within the country. There will at some point in the future be a critical moment where the demands of South Africa outweigh the financial benefits.

The Japanese market could potentially prove very lucrative for the ARU/NZRU, Japan will likely demand to be included in the Australian/New Zealand conference at the next broadcast rights agreements and its possible the value added by Japan could offset the value of South Africa.

I dont think South Africa will ever leave the Super Rugby model, but i do believe it will continue to evolve with a greater focus on the conference systems and on those teams within the relative timezones.

It will all depend on NZ. As long as the NZRFU take the view that they want to play South African teams as often as possible, then we're stuck with that arrangement and we have to play them just as often.

No doubt from an Australian point of view, we'd like a trans-Tasman competition, at least in the pool stages, but it's unlikely.

See post #380 for the NZRFU's position re South Africa.

 

[Braveheart81]

No doubt from an Australian point of view, we'd like a trans-Tasman competition, at least in the pool stages, but it's unlikely.

Maybe from a fans perspective but I'm not sure the ARU would.

I doubt they'd decide that foregoing a large portion of their revenue for more games in prime time was a good move forward.

 

[KevinO]

The whole structure sucks, and I can see the ARU/Clubs increasing the membership price every second year saying your getting an extra game.

Can see this structure costing fans in Australia, to complicated to follow when you can just watch AFL/NRL.

 

[PaarlBok]

Ah I didn't know that.

As facts change so should opinions though. In my (outsider's) view it appears that the appeasement of South Africa has gone too far against what benefits the tournament.

The S18 structure, to me anyway, is not desirable.

Dunno why you moan now about this. You can go back in time, was stupid when they change from S12 to S14 even more stupid changing to S15 when they brought in the Rebels. Thats was OK for you not for SA or NZ.

 

[Mank]

Its an evolving issue..

With things continuing the way they are it will eventually get to the point where South Africa will be demanding their 24th team just to satisfy every fraction of rugby union within the country. There will at some point in the future be a critical moment where the demands of South Africa outweigh the financial benefits.

So what you're saying is that you are only willing to put up with South Africa as long as we're beneficial to you?

Besides, your view above is not reflective of reality. The reality is that Australia got everything it wanted in the last negotiations while South Africa endured yet more devaluation of our local Currie Cup comp due to stupid length of the S<whatever it is now>.

 

[PaarlBok]

the S100 got to the point that it need to end. SA have to go north , now more then ever. CC rugby and long tours will make much more money then this stupid format. It will get there eventually.

 

[wamberal]

Errrr, look at the clock, it's the 21st Century already!


The game has been openly professional for twenty bloody years, and we still have supporters wondering why we need to bow down low before the almighty dollar.

 

[MrTabua]

Only trouble with your logic is that NZ have repeatedly said that they won't be involved in super rugby without South Africa.

Without South Africa it wouldn't be Super Rugby.

I'd be happy with the baked beans version. SPC for me.

 

[PaarlBok]

For SA its far from perfect, in fact its bad for our rugby. Our rugby heart still is the CC with its u19/u21 leagues which develope our schoolboy to senior players. Way back when Luyt started with the format it work well when the top CC teams played NZ/Aus provinces. It degraded our CC nowadays.

 

[MrTabua]

At the moment the current and future arrangements suit all the SANZAR nations for different reasons. They will all compromise on various issues as long as they get what they want. Those of us who are older than we'd like to admit remember life in Australia before Super rugby. The Waratahs playing fixtures on Sunday afternoons at Concord Oval against NZ provinces in front of 4 or 5 thousand people. People need to recognise that for all its faults, super rugby has been a huge positive for Australian rugby in terms of dollars and in terms of player development. It's not perfect, but it's a million miles ahead of what we had before.

I was thinking about that the other day amongst all the doom and gloom for the future of Oz rugby.

Expectations were really very very low before a golden age of Wallaby success in the midst of rugby league chaos from the Super League War. (And before the 1991 RWC win.)

It was an amazing achievement at the time that Little and Horan didn't sign for a league club following Strasbourg '89.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

It was an amazing achievement at the time that Little and Horan didn't sign for a league club following Strasbourg '89.

Or Elton Flatley to Super League in 1995.

 

[LeinsterRebel]

Dunno why you moan now about this. You can go back in time, was stupid when they change from S12 to S14 even more stupid changing to S15 when they brought in the Rebels. Thats was OK for you not for SA or NZ.

I have no problem with the Super Rugby championship expanding and taking on new teams. As the tournament evolves I want it to evolve for the good of the tournament and the good of rugby and to be a coherent competition.

 

[MrTabua]

Or Elton Flatley to Super League in 1995.

Can't believe we kept Sean Hardman from Nudgee 1994 as well

 

[MrTabua]

I have no problem with the Super Rugby championship expanding and taking on new teams. As the tournament evolves I want it to evolve for the good of the tournament and the good of rugby and to be a coherent competition.

the legitimacy/coherency of the competition is certainly challenged with the new teams and pools AND automatic qualifications to the finals.

 

[LeinsterRebel]

So what you're saying is that you are only willing to put up with South Africa as long as we're beneficial to you?

Besides, your view above is not reflective of reality. The reality is that Australia got everything it wanted in the last negotiations while South Africa endured yet more devaluation of our local Currie Cup comp due to stupid length of the S<whatever it is now>.

I think this point highlights the problem with the South African stakeholders. Their domestic competition is their priority.

Super Rugby should be aspiring to be the world's premier rugby competition but it is being held back by South Africa (EDIT: BY THIS I MEAN THE ATTITUDES EVIDENT HERE AND IN SANZAR NEGOTIATIONS, NOT ON THE FIELD). It is the priority to the other competing nations. In my opinion it should be a bigger competition with the teams facing each-other twice. I want to see the Crusaders in Sydney every year, for example.

 

[LeinsterRebel]

Without South Africa it wouldn't be Super Rugby.

I'd be happy with the baked beans version. SPC for me.

South Africa would be missed, but everyone would get over it. If South Africa think they are more important then then would be better off out of it.


After spending 25 years in Europe, no-one really wants to watch South African club sides (rightly or wrongly) they want to watch the best Australian and Kiwi sides. Being a member of the Waratahs for years, aside from the big local derbies it is the visits of the likes of the Crusaders that excite the fan base.

More clashes between these sides would ultimately be more marketable to a global audience and would cause more excitement locally. I'd love a premier competition for the Southern Hemisphere, including South Africa, but the characteristic South African smugness/arrogance is completely misplaced.

 

[Mank]

I think this point highlights the problem with the South African stakeholders. Their domestic competition is their priority.

Super Rugby should be aspiring to be the world's premier rugby competition but it is being held back by South Africa. It is the priority to the other competing nations.

Could you give evidence how South Africa is holding it back? We agreed to the expansion each time. Last time, Oz got an extra team and more local games. Our Currie Cup is now a shade of what it was formerly. If SA are holding Super Rugby back to preserve the Currie Cup they're doing a dismal job. Either that, or your opinion is incorrect.

In my opinion it should be a bigger competition with the teams facing each-other twice. I want to see the Crusaders in Sydney every year, for example.

That is your view but it is not shared by everyone. I don't particularly care if we don't play every team every year. I want quality rather than quantity, and I suspect most fans will want the same. The comp has become unwieldy and less interesting.

Expansion
Quality
Play every team each year

Pick two of the above, you can't have all three.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

Didn't Hardman go on to bigger and better... oh wait.

More at the topic hand, it could be argued that the Currie Cup and NPC have both headed in the same direction, though not nearly as badly as when the NRL arrived in Brisbane or the AFL arrived in Sth Australia and WA.

I'm not so sure that going north would solve all of SA rugby's woes, especially competing against the deep pockets of the French and English clubs.

As it is, I like the idea of broadening the comp to include up and coming nations; such an enterprise is never going to make everyone happy all the time, but what in life does? Super Rugby has kept SA, NZ, and Australia at the pinnacle of world rugby and has provided it with bulk cash. Moreover, as a rugby consumer/supporter/conniseur I've enjoyed it, even the games without tackling, and will continue to watch it over the batshit boring NRL.

 

[Mank]

South Africa would be missed, but everyone would get over it. If South Africa think they are more important then then would be better off out of it.

You clearly have a bias here. When SA ask for something, your view becomes "think they are more important". You need to examine your position and the facts that have transpired over the years of Super Rugby. I think you'll find that SA have contributed and conceded a lot.

After spending 25 years in Europe, no-one really wants to watch South African club sides (rightly or wrongly) they want to watch the best Australian and Kiwi sides.

Is that why South African provincial sides come over most years to play the UK clubs in warm up games that are well attended? Where are the Australian or Kiwi sides?

 

[LeinsterRebel]

Could you give evidence how South Africa is holding it back? We agreed to the expansion each time. Last time, Oz got an extra team and more local games. Our Currie Cup is now a shade of what it was formerly. If SA are holding Super Rugby back to preserve the Currie Cup they're doing a dismal job. Either that, or your opinion is incorrect.




That is your view but it is not shared by everyone. I don't particularly care if we don't play every team every year. I want quality rather than quantity, and I suspect most fans will want the same. The comp has become unwieldy and less interesting.

Expansion
Quality
Play every team each year

Pick two of the above, you can't have all three.

To your first point, fair call I had actually edited my post (and marked the edit) prior to your response. The attitude of the South Africans towards the competition and their delusions of grandeur are what is holding it back.

The Super Rugby Championship could/should/would be the biggest rugby tournament (short of test level) in the world if there was a collective will within SANZAR to make it so. Domestic competition in South Africa can't take priority for this to happen.

Australia is all-in with Super Rugby. Australian and New Zealand rugby is the rugby that enthusiasts the world-over romanticise about. Australian rugby stakeholders are a bit down in the dumps about prospects lately but I have no doubt that deep down they know that while the brains may be in Europe the heart of rugby and what people love about the game is here, and the game is going to explode in the next 20 years.