RWC - England v. Argentina - 10th September 2011

[Lee Grant]

Everybody outside of England is hoping that Argentina will be the giant-killer they were in the last RWC when they beat France twice, and Ireland. I can't see it happening this time but I didn't see it coming last time either.

The overseas Argentine players have played only one test this year (and weren't impressive in the 2010 autumn tests either). Also they lost a series at home to Scotland in 2010.

They were ordinary against a nervous Wales team in their only 2011 test a couple of weeks ago – a very low intensity game compared to what we are used to in 3N. No doubt their scrum and general forward play will be strong points of their game, but at one time in the trial they had 1. Roncero (34), 2. Ledesma (38) and 3. Scelzo (35) in the scrum in the 2nd half and it creaked. I know the last two fairly well, as they play for Clermont, and like many of us, they have seen better days. LHP Ayerza of Leicester could find himself getting more game time than some folks think.

At least England is not known for an up tempo game; so that should suit them.

They still have some good players. Backrowers Fernández-Lobbe of Toulon and Leguizamón of Stade Français are experienced hard heads. Star player JMH will be missed and but at least they will have old-stager flyhalf Contepomi of Toulon at the helm and experienced Vergallo of Toulouse will be dishing the ball to him.

They will play 10 man rugby against England and, at their best, will be one of the few teams that will be able to match them. At their best.

Contepomi will have to slot all his goals and the forwards play for 80 minutes.

Have talked about England in another thread. Latest news is that skipper Moody will sit out this match.

 

[tigerland12]

England can destroy Argentina if they play expansive and get the ball to Ashton and Foden quickly, but if they try play their usuall 10 man rugby, I think the Argies could beat them.
As you said Lee, they boast some pretty good players such as Fernandez-Lobbe and Contepomi, who, in my opinion, are better then their opposites.

 

[Lee Grant]

I doubt if the Poms will think about moving the ball out wide unless they have the Pumas going backwards, which will have to be earned. They beat Oz with an expansive game at the end of last year but it was a one off, albeit a brilliant one-off.

They will set the template for their RWC campaign when they play Argentina. The match will not be altogether about beating them, but winning the Quarter-Final and anything beyond afterwards, also.

There are some matters of interest. Who will get the first shot at hooker, Thompson or Hartley? Will Stevens get the gig starting at THP or will Coles start? Will Wilko start instead of Flood? The 2nd named players are favoured but the other three could get precedence by the end of the pool games.

Just about every England fan will want to watch Tindall at 12 and M. Tuilagi at 13. They worked a treat v. Ireland with the players swapping on defence.

Look for Tindall to be England's most valuable player in this tournament with Youngs close to that mark also.

 

[undercoverkiwi]

I really can't see the RG getting past England. They just don't play enough rugby together.

 

[tigerland12]

The ArgieBargie's have named their team.

Martin Rodriguez, Gonzalo Camacho, Gonzalo Tiesi, Santiago Fernandez, Horacio Agulla, Felipe Contepomi (captain), Nicolas Vergallo; Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe, Juan Martin Leguizamon, Julio Farias Cabello, Patricio Albacete, Manuel Carizza, Juan Figallo, Mario Ledesma, Rodrigo Roncero. Replacements: Agustin Creevy, Martin Scelzo, Mariano Galarza, Alejandro Campos, Alfredo Lalanne, Marcelo Bosch, Juan Imhoff.

There is a few very skilled players in that side who play regularly for their European sides. Albacete is one to watch out for, has been a premier lock in France for many years.

Edit: Didn't realise there was a match day team thread, but oh well.

 

[dobduff11]

That is a class backline even without JMH.

I really rate Rodriguez, Camacho, Tiesi, Agulla and Contepomi. Surprised Scelzo isn't starting.

Have a feeling this could be a close one

 

[chief]

This should be a cracker of a game. I can't wait to see how the Argentinian Backline performs. I am going for England because I worry that if all goes to plan we could see them in the playoffs, but half of me wants Argentina to win to recapture the 2007 glory. I think Contemponi has been such a wonderful servant of Rugby in South America too.

 

[Lee Grant]

Edit: Didn't realise there was a match day team thread, but oh well.

There's nothing wrong in putting a team in the match thread also. Not every game will have a thread.

The match day team thread is for easy reference.

 

[Shiggins]

Argentina will struggle this year. They have lost some great players to retirement and are rebuilding.


Go the force!!!!

 

[Lee Grant]

Surprised Scelzo isn't starting.

Me too, though when he came on in that trial against Wales the Pumas front row looked very creaky and the average age of it must have been about 35.

Can't say that 3. Figallo, who started in that trial, ever took my eye when I've watched Montpelier but, being a Clermont fan, one realises that 2. Ledesma and 3. Scelzo are slowing down - and the Clermont scrum was hardly stellar last season.

 

[Rev Spooner]

Yep - the Pumas are in a rebuilding phase and should lose to the Poms. Interestingly, they join the 4N next year and have hopes of entering a S15 side in the future. They're spending some cash and organising themselves under the watchful eye of Pichot. Here's a link to a Times article about the Pumas: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...tions-experience/story-e6frg7o6-1226130922768

 

[Jnor]

I'll be very interested to see how the Pumas go once they do start getting regular tests with a playing group that gets to spend more than five seconds together.

Good luck to them.

 

[Lee Grant]

Cueto is out of the game with a back strain. Armitage will likely take his place with Banahan coming onto the bench.

 

[Manuel]

Unfortunately, I don't see Argentina winning this one.

Felipe Contepomi has been a great servant of Argentine rugby, but he is past his prime and is really a centre now. He has become a real liability when playing fly-half. The only thing that makes me think they may stand a chance is that England are planning to play even tighter than usual, which is precisely whet suits the Pumas best.

France made the same mistake four years ago: played strong forwards and focused a lot of the preparation on the forwards in order to win that battle. They even went for a 5/2 split with two props on the bench. England are expected to play Tompson at hooker and leave Palmer out, with Deacon and Lawes in the second row. Easter is expected back at 8 and Haskell to play 7. Not precisely the kind of players that like opening the ball wide.

I also watched an interview in the Argentine TV to Corcho Fernández Lobbe and JM Leguizamón and they confirmed that their plan was to play tight andkick a lot to divide possesion. Not the bast gameplan when Contepomi is as inaccurate with the boot as he has been lately.

Finally, Argentina wil be really lacking size in the centres. I predict Tuilagi to have a field day and England may even score a try! The Argentine backrow, as good as two thirds of it is, can't really cover as much.

Unfortunately, I think England will take it by 10-15.

 

[Lee Grant]

Wow that was a surprise. Who would have though Wilko and the Argentine kickers would have missed all those kicks at goal?

It was quite an absorbing match and well refereed - something I don't always say when B. Lawrence has the whistle.

I see that Courtney Lawes got his knees into somebody on the ground. He is a wonderfully athletic young player but he can be a bit of a grub. It's not the first time I have seen him do something like that for the Saints or England.

It was a top effort from Argentina - probably their best game since the 2007 RWC and heaps better that their one test this year in a trial a few weeks ago, and the ones they played in the NH autumn nearly a year ago.

It was a poor effort from England but I thought that Youngs would be the difference on the snipe when he came off the bench. If England do well in this tournament, he will have a lot to do about it. He hasn't been fit enough to play in any trial games but you can see the snap he brings to the team.

If England wanted to beat the Pumas at their own game, they failed, and their bully, cynical play was pinged and made them behave - an unaccustomed habit for them.

 

[Rev Spooner]

Has Lawes been cited? because that was out of line. Good effort from the Poms in the end. Youngs made a huge difference around the field. English scrum looked ominous as well.

 

[Lee Grant]

No mention of it. I think he's a very lucky lad - as Quade Cooper was in the Brisbane Bledisloe. If these fellows knew how much our regard for them is diminished by cheap shots like this they wouldn't do it.

The aren't the only ones at this RWC who have this unsavoury streak either. I was amazed at Tincu's good behaviour yesterday - like a choirboy.