RWC 2019 1/4 Final England vs Australia

[Derpus]

Actually this comment is more the problem with Australian rugby than you think.
A lot of us didn't go to your posh schools nor wear a fucking tie. But we don't get the opportunities because of it. New Zealand on the other hand..

 

[Derpus]

Yeeeeah well fuck me, we all knew that was coming, how depressing.

Ref was good, England were better, we were absolute shit. Tried hard lads, four more years, please fucking spank England NZ or Ireland.

NZ have it in the bag the way its going.

 

[KOB1987]

Yeeeeah well fuck me, we all knew that was coming, how depressing.

Ref was good, England were better, we were absolute shit. Tried hard lads, four more years, please fucking spank England NZ or Ireland.

Yeah and I’m going to kick your butt in the fantasy game ;-)

 

[A mutterer]

Actually this comment is more the problem with Australian rugby than you think.
A lot of us didn't go to your posh schools nor wear a fucking tie. But we don't get the opportunities because of it. New Zealand on the other hand..

 

[Viking]

Yes, I guess what I'm saying is I don't know why we focus on it so much. I feel like we feel like switching a player or two would be the silver bullet, when sometimes I think it's collectively so much more. Maybe we would have done better in some of those prior games, but who knows. In a lot of cases I don't think some of the other options were all that compelling when Pooper was an option (which it hadn't been with Pococks various injuries) and at least in this RWC it hasn't lead to any obvious deficit in areas such as our lineout.


Anyway at the end of the day, thats the last we will see the Pooper in action with Pocock retiring from International rugby.

I think the focus on these relatively small areas of the game like the selection of Pooper, or Beale V DHP or in your words 'the silver bullet' is because we really aren't that far away from being a quality side.

I disagree that it's collectively a much more complex issue with poor grassroots etc. I think we are only 5% worse then the opposition and half of it is poor strategy (coaching).

For example: We have players that have the ability to exit our 22 - White, Hodge both have huge boots.

We just need to refine a few key area's and we are good.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Like if we ran lopeti timani out instead of hoops, hey?

Sometimes I really do wonder where you come from KOB. WTF would I want Lopeti Timani in place of Hooper. He's a Waratah too.

 

[Gnostic]

Other countries have players who have worked hard and repetitively to improve their skills, just look at Japan. Players like Beale are exactly what they were when awarded their first Pro contract.

Some things like outright speed can be improved only a little from what somebody naturally has but passing can be, kicking can be, support running, etc etc etc all can be. Nothing we have seen from far too many Australian players has shown that they are wiling to do what needs to be done. I say that this is a coaching failure again, but we have had probably a dozen professional coaches over the last 10 years Beale probably has had a dozen in himself, and has never improved a jot.

Having been an adult trainer in a couple of vastly different fields I can say with absolute certainty that the outcome is not only dependant on the trainer/coach identifying weaknesses/skill defects and then being able to design plan to rectify that in a practical way that the student can actual use/comprehend, the student has to be receptive to the training. Arrogance is a hall mark of this Wallabies team from the coach down and that doesn't lend itself to learning outcomes.

Along with Chieka some players need to be gone, they have had their chances and keeping them in place after so many years of failing to improve on skills is an impediment to a future learning culture. I'd add that Hooper must for the same reasons be relieved as Captain, he is Chieka's man through and through and if he was as good as the supporters have him the detractors would have no ammunition to throw. I am not as negative on him as some, but his Captaincy is weak and on too many times he has a poor understanding of the Law when he has challenged the Referee and that has left him in a very bad position. Also results matter.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I think the improvement to try to make an elite player already playing at his best,better, is marginal. We saw an example tonight with Genia, his ball clearance at the start of the game was outstanding. Once he got tired he reverted to the norm, a few sideways steps. It was obviously something they tried to drill out of him.

I saw a different Genia. He was the poorest in a pretty poor all round performance.

 

[Gnostic]

As for Chieka's press conference - well mate your a pro getting paid shit loads above the median wage. You have conducted yourself with arrogance and zero compassion and understanding for referees on many many occasions, so suck it up buttercup. You have been found out as poorly prepared and tactically incompetent for the last 4 years. Own it and suck it up. Link certainly did the brave and honourable thing straight after the ABs game.

 

[Viking]

Other countries have players who have worked hard and repetitively to improve their skills, just look at Japan. Players like Beale are exactly what they were when awarded their first Pro contract.

Some things like outright speed can be improved only a little from what somebody naturally has but passing can be, kicking can be, support running, etc etc etc all can be. Nothing we have seen from far too many Australian players has shown that they are wiling to do what needs to be done. I say that this is a coaching failure again, but we have had probably a dozen professional coaches over the last 10 years Beale probably has had a dozen in himself, and has never improved a jot.

Having been an adult trainer in a couple of vastly different fields I can say with absolute certainty that the outcome is not only dependant on the trainer/coach identifying weaknesses/skill defects and then being able to design plan to rectify that in a practical way that the student can actual use/comprehend, the student has to be receptive to the training. Arrogance is a hall mark of this Wallabies team from the coach down and that doesn't lend itself to learning outcomes.

Along with Chieka some players need to be gone, they have had their chances and keeping them in place after so many years of failing to improve on skills is an impediment to a future learning culture. I'd add that Hooper must for the same reasons be relieved as Captain, he is Chieka's man through and through and if he was as good as the supporters have him the detractors would have no ammunition to throw. I am not as negative on him as some, but his Captaincy is weak and on too many times he has a poor understanding of the Law when he has challenged the Referee and that has left him in a very bad position. Also results matter.

Continuly playing players out of position add to this too. For example Beale. He should have stayed at 15 and worked on his skill (high ball, kicking) - instead he is shifted to 12 where he was a defensive liability.

Or Folau - anywhere else in the world they play him on the wing and he become undoubtedly the best winger in the world and score mulitple cross feild kicks. Instead he is played at 15 where he has a weakness of kicking and lack on playmaking option to inject into the line.

They needs to find the best positions for players natural skill-sets, leave them there so they can develop.

 

[Quick Hands]

Scratchy win over Fiji, loss to Wales, comfortable win over Uruguay, scratchy win over Georgia and a flogging by England. If nothing else, surely this campaign kills forever the myth of running rugby.

BTW, all results predicted and predictable.

 

[Lorenzo]

As for Chieka's press conference - well mate your a pro getting paid shit loads above the median wage. You have conducted yourself with arrogance and zero compassion and understanding for referees on many many occasions, so suck it up buttercup. You have been found out as poorly prepared and tactically incompetent for the last 4 years. Own it and suck it up. Link certainly did the brave and honourable thing straight after the ABs game.

Bloody hypocrite, he is. How frequently has he been uncooperative with journalists asking fair questions? Suddenly he wants compassion from a journalist asking an entirely relevant question.

Likes the tough guy rep a lot more than being an actual tough guy, i reckon.

 

[Gnostic]

I agree, fully but from your examples Folau played at 15 since what 2013? He was moved to 13 or wing a couple of times because of his total lack of any real effective kicking game. A true professional in 5 years (especially coming from AFL) would have a real kicking game. Was it all the coaches fault? I seriously doubt it, and the remainder of his game demanded he be picked, but what position was always going to be the problem. So with essentially a guarantee of selection I think he and others are complacent and arrogant in their "professionalism" and they meet their KPIs on fitness and diet and meetings and whatever. Real development is not in the contract.

I would like to see performance based contracts, perform and improve and be rewarded with selection and match payments. Apart from that it is a base contract. No top ups and no guarantee of selection because the ARU is forking out $1M+ per year to have you on their books. Some will say that will cause a player drain OS, well IMO it doesn't matter because RA has made a mockery of the selection rules for years anyway so, much so they are really irrelevant if the selection is wanted by the coach.

 

[A mutterer]

Along with Chieka some players need to be gone, they have had their chances and keeping them in place after so many years of failing to improve on skills is an impediment to a future learning culture. I'd add that Hooper must for the same reasons be relieved as Captain, he is Chieka's man through and through and if he was as good as the supporters have him the detractors would have no ammunition to throw. I am not as negative on him as some, but his Captaincy is weak and on too many times he has a poor understanding of the Law when he has challenged the Referee and that has left him in a very bad position. Also results matter.

having been a coach and trainer myself im not sure its reflective of the individual. think back to early Richie - was he any better than hooper? the key difference is that he was identified as needing additional training and coaching and provided it.

chieka has, and always will be, a great coach for a turnaround within a max 3 year window. this isnt a bad skillset, many CEO's/CXO's excel at it. but most of them know their strengths and lean into it and exit when they need to.

chieka has spent too much time believing his own hype and outstayed his welcome by a few.

 

[Juan Cote]

The grab from Cheika’s presser....who wants to join me in the cupboard?
How dare he make statements pre World Cup that if he didn’t win it he’d walk away then get asked a question about that statement and feel aggrieved.
Knuckles wasn’t afforded such courtesy in 2007 in far more difficult circumstance but his bloke thinks he should be some sort of protected specie.
Jesus wept

 

[A mutterer]

The grab from Cheika’s presser..who wants to join me in the cupboard?
How dare he make statements pre World Cup that if he didn’t win it he’d walk away then get asked a question about that statement and feel aggrieved.
Knuckles wasn’t afforded such courtesy in 2007 in far more difficult circumstance but his bloke thinks he should be some sort of protected specie.
Jesus wept

thank fuck i missed the presser then i dont need any more liver damage tonight

 

[Gnostic]

having been a coach and trainer myself im not sure its reflective of the individual. think back to early Richie - was he any better than hooper? the key difference is that he was identified as needing additional training and coaching and provided it.



chieka has, and always will be, a great coach for a turnaround within a max 3 year window. this isnt a bad skillset, many CEO's/CXO's excel at it. but most of them know their strengths and lean into it and exit when they need to.



chieka has spent too much time believing his own hype and outstayed his welcome by a few.

I could agree with you if we had outlying examples of this. But that is not the case we have a long history of it for over a decade across players, teams and coaches. From AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at Brumbies and Tahs, Folau, Genia, Beale. The list is very extensive for both players and coaches, so its not only reflective on individuals but it is on the system and the culture in "professional" ranks. A trend like that cannot be easily explained away.

 

[Lorenzo]

What I think we've seen, from the obsession with ' running rugby' to giving guys like like Folau everything in the till, is the immensely misguided notion that those things best place us to compete for the 'entertainment dollar' with rugby league a d AFL etc.

My long held position is that there's a natural bracket for rugby's popularity. It will never be as popular as cricket, for instance. What we saw in the 90s was that rugby was still a niche sport but people around the Water cooler knew that the wallabies were good. They didn't moan when we won a test only scoring one try. People used to appreciate smart tactical kicking when it helped us win. The best thing we can do for rugby is start performing well at RUGBY, not trying to turn it into the NBA all star game or Cirque Du Soleil or rugby league or whatever.

Any short term dopamine hit we got from Folau, in the form of people from league or AFL showing an interest in our sport, was promptly wasted through a long period of neglect of actually performing well in our sport.

Having our teams perform well (I.e results) will push the popularity of rugby to the top it's natural bracket. Trying to turn rugby into something else will do the opposite.

The next wallaby coach needs to have simple kpi. Win. Fuck running rugby. Fuck 'ball in hand'. Fuck our 'style. Go out there and bloody win.

 

[A mutterer]

I could agree with you if we had outlying examples of this. But that is not the case we have a long history of it for over a decade across players, teams and coaches. From AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at Brumbies and Tahs, Folau, Genia, Beale. The list is very extensive for both players and coaches, so its not only reflective on individuals but it is on the system and the culture in "professional" ranks. A trend like that cannot be easily explained away.

hodgson at the force? grew into captaincy and was clearly supported by wessels. pocock also did some optional leadership training on his sabbatical and has done a good job standing in.

difference in nz is that they tale this stuff seriously, up to and including psychologists to focus on performance, and more importantly focus under pressure.

the u18s and u20s show that leadership and acheivement is there. i think weve lost sight of some of this because of the current crop of wobs and the habitual patterns of selection, behaviours and outcomes.

 

[AngrySeahorse]

I was thinking quarter final appearance at best and out in the pool stages at worst. So as disappointed as i am i was kinda expecting the result tonight.

I have come back on board after a hiatus from following the wallabies. After the ewan/pattision fiasco i had just had a gut load of the team.

I cant really add anything more to what a lot of posters have already said. Changes ahead.