RWC 2011 - Bitch, moan and discuss - Referees and Law Discussions

[Set piece magic]

Oh okay, well that's good news and bad news. Anyone have speculation (at this stage) for the refs of each quarter final?

Keep in mind the anticipated:

1. Ireland V Wales
2. England V France
3. S. Africa V Aus
4. NZ V Argentina

Semi

Ireland V England
NZ V Aus

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

Decent post. I just think you are a bit harsh on Bryce. Managing a test match is no easy feat, and he is someone you can rely on to do the job competently, and consistently (looking at this purely from a referee manager POV). Because us fans expect so much from him, we get frustrated whenever he referees. I'd give him B or B+ (relative to the S15 and IRB refs).

Do you do much reffing Spik? You should definitely take it up if you haven't already.

 

[Braveheart81]

At least if we're playing South Africa, we can't get Kaplan.

So the 10 referees are:
Barnes, Wayne (RFU) - 2007 QF
Poite, Romain (FFR)
Owens, Nigel (WRU)
Rolland, Alain (IRFU) - 2003 QF, 2007 QF and Final
Walsh, Steve (ARU) - 2003 QF, 2007 SF
Lawrence, Bryce (NZRU)
Clancy, George (IRFU)
Kaplan, Jonathan (SARU) - 2003 QF, 2007 SF
Joubert, Craig (SARU)
Pearson, Dave (RFU)

Going from the last two RWC, you'd have to think that Steve Walsh, Jonathan Kaplan and Alain Rolland are the most likely chances of getting the final.

If you made the assumption that Alain Rolland wasn't going to get another final then I'd say Kaplan is a legitimate chance at getting the final unless South Africa make it. If New Zealand make it, I wonder if that rules out Steve Walsh as well or whether he'd just be barred from Australian games?

I'd guess that Wayne Barnes gets the semi final on the Aus/SA/NZ side of the draw and Steve Walsh gets the semi on the Eng/Ire/Wal/Fra side of the draw.

Kaplan would get one of the QFs and the other three might be Joubert, Rolland, and Lawrence.

 

[Set piece magic]

I was scheduled to ref a heap of GPS matches this year, however I missed the referees course update so couldn't. I'm certainly looking to get into it next year in a big way and take it further.

A case can certainly be made for Bryce being a good game manager - he doesn't have Kaplanitis and give away retarded game changing penalties / tries (see Wales V Ireland), I guess his habit of missing small things like knock ons etc gets on my nerves

 

[Jay]

If New Zealand make it, I wonder if that rules out Steve Walsh as well or whether he'd just be barred from Australian games?

I can't believe they'd be stupid enough to appoint Walsh to a WC match with NZ playing, surely.

 

[Hawko]

At least if we're playing South Africa, we can't get Kaplan.


Going from the last two RWC, you'd have to think that Steve Walsh, Jonathan Kaplan and Alain Rolland are the most likely chances of getting the final.

If you made the assumption that Alain Rolland wasn't going to get another final then I'd say Kaplan is a legitimate chance at getting the final unless South Africa make it. If New Zealand make it, I wonder if that rules out Steve Walsh as well or whether he'd just be barred from Australian games?

I'd guess that Wayne Barnes gets the semi final on the Aus/SA/NZ side of the draw and Steve Walsh gets the semi on the Eng/Ire/Wal/Fra side of the draw.

Kaplan would get one of the QFs and the other three might be Joubert, Rolland, and Lawrence.

It would appear from your post that you think Joubert has dropped off the list. Given that it appeared that he was one of the top three refs leading into the cup that's a huge fall from grace.

 

[Braveheart81]

It would appear from your post that you think Joubert has dropped off the list. Given that it appeared that he was one of the top three refs leading into the cup that's a huge fall from grace.

Not at all. I had him down for a quarter final. Looking at the referee appointments from the last few cups, there seems to be a fair amount of rewarding seniority. That's the only reason I'm tipping one of last RWC's semi final referees to get the final. Given that the odds are that NZ will be in the final, that would point to Kaplan.

 

[mark_s]

are you kidding me.
How anyone on planet earth rates Bryce is a mystery, perhaps they mistook him him for mark, who is an awesome referee and should be only second in the world pecking order to Barnes.

All the evidence over the last 4 years suggests that Paddy rates Bryce Lawrence. I think its unlikely that Paddy will have an epiphany in the next week.

 

[RugbyInterest]

I was scheduled to ref a heap of GPS matches this year, however I missed the referees course update so couldn't. I'm certainly looking to get into it next year in a big way and take it further.

Interesting - what makes you think you would have been appointed to these games. Sure the schools involved do appoint to B/C/D games but QRRA appoints to 1st/2nd XVs and all A games based on merit with seniority also playing a role but they appoint on a weekly basis depending on availability etc and there has never been such thing as a schedule so not sure how you could be scheduled to ref a heap of these games unless they were the lower grades.

 

[Set piece magic]

I meant lower games ^^. I'm a student there is no way I'd be doing first or second XV. What I meant (context mix up) was that they where short of refs at school and that refs were doing up to 3 or 4 games on a saturday, so if i did get to do that I would get a fair bit of experience. Unfortunately **** happened and I missed the course... which means I now have to wait till next year. Apologies for the mix up.

 

[#1?]

Referee Owens blew Oranges in the Saffer vs Samoa when the ball touched him. It touched him cause he appeared to be in the wrong place. The Samoans were deep on attack with momentum in their favour when the Referee got in the way of yet another promising attack from the Samoans. Time was past 40 minutes.

Owens blew oranges rather than play the scrum feed to Samoans. Seemed very unfair to the Samoans.

 

[DPK]

Referee Owens blew Oranges in the Saffer vs Samoa when the ball touched him. It touched him cause he appeared to be in the wrong place. The Samoans were deep on attack with momentum in their favour when the Referee got in the way of yet another promising attack from the Samoans. Time was past 40 minutes.

Owens blew oranges rather than play the scrum feed to Samoans. Seemed very unfair to the Samoans.

I think this was the right call. Same thing happened in one of the RSA vs Aus TriNations games this year (see the G&GR video "A killer play, killed").

 

[#1?]

Referee is the sole judge of time and fact, but why the fact did Owens get in the way?

 

[Braveheart81]

I don't think he can be blamed too much for the ball hitting him. Owens was chasing the play and the Samoan player just flung it back as he was being tackled and it hit Owens. It wasn't like it was a reasonable pass to a support player that the referee shouldn't have been in the way of.

 

[Set piece magic]

Yeah that was fair enough, what wasn't was the following:

The number of times he had to have the correct call given to him by his assisstant: is it really that hard?
Wayne Barnes got them all correct from the sideline as usual, bar one where he said that someone had attacked someone else and they had retaliated; it was actually the other way around but it didn't matter: no penalty was given just a general warning.
Pieterson penalty try. This miss was a really bad one and really warrents the demotion of Owens, you can't miss something as obvious like that. Something needs to be done to get the error into the press, it's clearly a penalty try. You can't miss something as blatant as that and claim to be an international standard ref.
Red card. Poor, poor call from the touch judge. imo you should check with the video to determine what happened if you believe it warrents a red. That was a simple slap in the face. Also, Brussow should be cited for diving and get 2 weeks. That stuff is just totally not on in rugby, legit Brussow can fuck RIGHT off if he thinks thats in the spirit of our game. If it was me it would be out for the rest of the world cup.
Yellow card - was it neccessary? A response to the red card after they realized they fucked it up? No one fuckin knows, someone better take a look eh Paddy.

Altogether, It's pretty upsetting that we have this kind of stuff happening in a Rugby World Cup match, the pinnacle of our proud sport, when we have referee Mark Lawrence sitting in SA doing the CC, retired from international reffing cause he wasn't selected.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Pretty average performance from Mr Owens.

I am assuming that he is a full time paid professional referee.

In which case, he deserves a decent counseling session from his manager for his performance tonight.

If he is a not a full time professional referee, ie an amateur, then well done. That was an amateur performance.

Why is Barnes, his Touch judge, so keen to big note himself?

Didn't think Barnseys performance as AR was much better than some of the touchies I see when Junior Jarses play their age grade SJRU games.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I think there is a rule about double posts but WTF I think this should be here as well. I posted it earlier in another thread - RWC Media Performance and Awards.

This "downwards pressure" comment from the Fox TV Callers really shits me.
I think it comes from mungoland where their rules may demand downward pressure for a try to be scored.

I am not some shiny arsed TV comments man but when I did my referees course, I was told that contact (pressure) with the ball was the issue to be determined when deciding to award a try. Downwards contact was NOT needed. So WTF do the bozos at FoxSports always revert to mungodoms "downwards pressure" comment to try and sound smart during the replays?

I have noticed that the kiwi TV commentators have adopted this terminology offer as well. Too much mungoball watching.

DOWNWARDS PRESSURE is NOT required for a rugby try.

Take note Fox Sports. Get it right.

IIRC ABC commentary team have also picked up the "downwards pressure" virus.

Comments from fellow referees and law book pedants.

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

The law (22.1) states:

There are two ways a player can ground the ball

(a) Player touches the ground with the ball. A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and
touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in
the arm or arms. No downward pressure is required.

(b) Player presses down on the ball. A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the
in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of
the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive

If you want to touch-down the ball, no downward pressure is required (large majority of tries are scored this way). If the ball is sitting in the in goal and you want to "ground" it. You need to press down on the ball.

So yea, the commentators are pretty much wrong. They always use it in the context of someone touching the ball down. Might be worth sending them some emails, or harassing them on twitter if it keeps up.

 

[Thomond78]

Yeah that was fair enough, what wasn't was the following:

The number of times he had to have the correct call given to him by his assisstant: is it really that hard?
Wayne Barnes got them all correct from the sideline as usual, bar one where he said that someone had attacked someone else and they had retaliated; it was actually the other way around but it didn't matter: no penalty was given just a general warning.
Pieterson penalty try. This miss was a really bad one and really warrents the demotion of Owens, you can't miss something as obvious like that. Something needs to be done to get the error into the press, it's clearly a penalty try. You can't miss something as blatant as that and claim to be an international standard ref.
Red card. Poor, poor call from the touch judge. imo you should check with the video to determine what happened if you believe it warrents a red. That was a simple slap in the face. Also, Brussow should be cited for diving and get 2 weeks. That stuff is just totally not on in rugby, legit Brussow can fuck RIGHT off if he thinks thats in the spirit of our game. If it was me it would be out for the rest of the world cup.
Yellow card - was it neccessary? A response to the red card after they realized they fucked it up? No one fuckin knows, someone better take a look eh Paddy.

Altogether, It's pretty upsetting that we have this kind of stuff happening in a Rugby World Cup match, the pinnacle of our proud sport, when we have referee Mark Lawrence sitting in SA doing the CC, retired from international reffing cause he wasn't selected.

Utter rubbish.

He was at the other side of that ruck, correctly positioned. Unless you think referees are provided with x-ray specs, there was no way he could have seen it.

What he did do was refer it to the TMO (with the idiot commentators complaining). And the TMO said no try.

There was a very simple way for Williams not to be sent off. Don't hold onto a guy off the ball, keep holding onto him when he's trying to break free, and then - after a ref has warned teams about discipline - smack the guy after you finally let go of him. He was going off, the minute he did that; and damned right too.

 

[Sully]

While I'll agree Pieterson was off his feet I don't think Owens was at fault here. He was positioned pretty well and did the right thing. The fact that the TMO is only allowed to look at grounding is not good enough any more and needs to be extended. I hope they look at this in the review post world cup.