Rugby schools, their players, and the pathway to Seniors

[Goosestep]

CAS/ISA/GPS need to merge in Sydney, and get put into different divisions.

im sick of big schools eg Joeys Knox Grammar , only playing on trial games.
These private schools need to have higher standard competitions to help the wallabies , as opposed to just doing their own thing in a closed shop. Don’t these schools care about helping the Wallabies win world cups/beat the All Blacks, by having higher competition structures.
It’s crazy in 2023 that these schools are in different associations. They need to merge into one association eg it would help higher competition standards at 1st 15, which ultimately helps the boys rugby development.

Why would they need to help the wallabies ?…

Do the schools need to help the Australian Cricket, Basketball or rowing ? … no

it’s Pretty evident that the majority of the Rugby public wants more of a focus on public schools getting involved. Rather than revamping private

 

[Steve Jones]

Private school system does not hold back the Wallabies. The lack of other systems producing talent leaves us thin along with the lack of input from RA to grow non traditional routes. The Private systems subsidise the national body to a cost the governing body could not afford with the onus they take in organisation.

Would merging them be an entire school concept or just a 1st XV for you? Some schools run what would be a top tier 1st XV but a weak overall program. If they end up in a Div 1 it’s likely you wreck the program entirely which is bad for Rugby.

The idea makes sense but feels like a sugar hit. The associations also producing rep sides provide more exposure for players. Kids in a div 3 first XV rep side would be looked over no doubt.

An idea I’d support would be a Cup Style knockout like the Waratah shield but with proper buy in not just sending the 16Bs to play Eddies 1st XV and building their reputation.

Nonsense ,

1) firstly it don’t matter if rest of rugby program is weak. Only two teams that count are 1st 15/16 A’s. The 15B’s can be weak.

2) Teams at 1st 15 would be placed in divisions based on strength

3) How is Joeys vs Knox Grammar playing in a meaningful game bad for rugby? Or Scots vs Waverley ?

better than playing ST Aloyisious college who are getting smashed all yr in CAS.

CAS/GPS/ISA don’t have enough depth to stand alone , there needs to be more competitive private school comp structures to help the wallabies.
Private schools ain’t the only junior system that needs fixing , but it’s time they had more integration with RA/Wallaby goals, rather than be a cult in isolation from RA.

 

[Steve Jones]

Why would they need to help the wallabies ?…

Do the schools need to help the Australian Cricket, Basketball or rowing ? … no

it’s Pretty evident that the majority of the Rugby public wants more of a focus on public schools getting involved. Rather than revamping private

Yes other sports to. Australian sport the private schools should be helping eg Socceroos/boomers /Oz cricket team.
They are in isolation from the national gov bodies , and aren’t developing competition structures that are of highest possible standards . This is despite RA and sports bodies trying to reach out to em. RA have been told many times to go away. Private schools can’t cry if wallabies keep losing to all blacks , if they choose not to make Aussie sport success a priority or continually refuse to be part of the Oz sports pyramid.

 

[Steve Jones]

Private school system does not hold back the Wallabies. The lack of other systems producing talent leaves us thin along with the lack of input from RA to grow non traditional routes. The Private systems subsidise the national body to a cost the governing body could not afford with the onus they take in organisation.

Would merging them be an entire school concept or just a 1st XV for you? Some schools run what would be a top tier 1st XV but a weak overall program. If they end up in a Div 1 it’s likely you wreck the program entirely which is bad for Rugby.

The idea makes sense but feels like a sugar hit. The associations also producing rep sides provide more exposure for players. Kids in a div 3 first XV rep side would be looked over no doubt.

An idea I’d support would be a Cup Style knockout like the Waratah shield but with proper buy in not just sending the 16Bs to play Eddies 1st XV and building their reputation.

 

[Steve Jones]

Your Div 3 1st 15 stuff makes no sense either . Sydney high Sydney grammar 1st 15 have to play in GPS 2nds/GPS 3rds comp. Should all the good rugby players at these schools leave and go to other schools ?

 

[Goosestep]

Yes other sports to. Australian sport the private schools should be helping eg Socceroos/boomers /Oz cricket team.
They are in isolation from the national gov bodies , and aren’t developing competition structures that are of highest possible standards . This is despite RA and sports bodies trying to reach out to em. RA have been told many times to go away. Private schools can’t cry if wallabies keep losing to all blacks , if they choose not to make Aussie sport success a priority or continually refuse to be part of the Oz sports pyramid.

Bro who’s crying ? lol

 

[Steve Jones]

Bro who’s crying ? lol

Just merge the associations . It’s crazy in 2023 that there is not a Sydney competition . Put more pressure on the boys/have higher competition standards /commercialise 1st 15 rugby eg let pay tv show games like they want to eg Foxtel wanted to buy GPS rights, only to be told by headmasters to go away. Crazy that there are 3 Associations in Sydney all in seperate comps

 

[Rob42]

Or run Sydney schools rugby like US college football (at about 1% scale): keep the GPS/CAS/ISA/etc, then pick the top four schools across all comps for a playoff. The onus is then on the top schools from any association to demonstrate their ability across the full schedule, whilst you can still have your historic rivalries and crown a champ for each association.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Nonsense ,

1) firstly it don’t matter if rest of rugby program is weak. Only two teams that count are 1st 15/16 A’s. The 15B’s can be weak.

2) Teams at 1st 15 would be placed in divisions based on strength

3) How is Joeys vs Knox Grammar playing in a meaningful game bad for rugby? Or Scots vs Waverley ?

better than playing ST Aloyisious college who are getting smashed all yr in CAS.

CAS/GPS/ISA don’t have enough depth to stand alone , there needs to be more competitive private school comp structures to help the wallabies.
Private schools ain’t the only junior system that needs fixing , but it’s time they had more integration with RA/Wallaby goals, rather than be a cult in isolation from RA.

Ok, got it. Pot stirring account and that's about it. You've trotted out the line only 1sts matter in Soccer & Basketball threads as well. Probably suit the RA thread with the shrink to grow model. Lets just tell the kid in the 15Bs at Trinity that you're irrelevant to Rugby because you aren't going to help us win a Bledisloe... Sport is unlike Business where it is a viable concept to shrink to success.

How would promotion work in your tiered system if it's not a whole program concept? Say Aloys have a good 1sts in Div 3 of this all remedying Sydney Schools comp and with some year 11s they have a not bad two year period. Do you put them up to Div 2, which would be of a higher standard but they now have none of those players that got them there? Are you assuming that getting a few wins will just result on an influx of Rugby Players to the school?

Games have been streamed and there is absolutely no evidence to suggest Joeys v Knox would suddenly be the biggest draw in Sydney. Good game, I have no doubt but there is no derby there like playing Joeys v Riverview and I reckon a lot more Knox people would have a bigger buzz around playing Barker or Waverley.

You know why Australia have dominated Rugby League? Yes it's a smaller global game but it's because we have numbers playing it at all levels creating depth. They run out multiple junior rep sides to compete with each other for the NSW spots. CIS, CCC, CHS etc much like our GPS, CAS, ISA, CHS. From here the Aus U18s have had far more success than the Wallabies over the last decade in International competition. What does this tell you? The system beyond Schools is broken. Club - Super Rugby is where we let our players down. The talent is produced. The issue is it isn't nurtured into professionals.

Your Div 3 1st 15 stuff makes no sense either . Sydney high Sydney grammar 1st 15 have to play in GPS 2nds/GPS 3rds comp. Should all the good rugby players at these schools leave and go to other schools ?

I think you have misinterpreted my Div 3 1st XV concept. Since SGS & SBHS have dropped down how many have been selected for GPS 1sts or 2nds? Maybe 1,2 at most. If we ran a 3rd Div I can almost guarantee none of these players from their 1st XVs would be selected in a higher rep side such as NSW Gen Blue or NSW Schools as you assume they aren't as good due to being in Div 3... Once again we further dilute our talent pool.

Just merge the associations . It’s crazy in 2023 that there is not a Sydney competition . Put more pressure on the boys/have higher competition standards /commercialise 1st 15 rugby eg let pay tv show games like they want to eg Foxtel wanted to buy GPS rights, only to be told by headmasters to go away. Crazy that there are 3 Associations in Sydney all in seperate comps

As much as we love to watch it, would it really attract the money you think it would? Cluch went under with 3m in Debts. GPS Rugby wasn't their only product but I reckon it would have been one of the major ones. Rugby need the Wallabies to have relative success to make money in the media.

 

[Steve Jones]

Ok, got it. Pot stirring account and that's about it. You've trotted out the line only 1sts matter in Soccer & Basketball threads as well. Probably suit the RA thread with the shrink to grow model. Lets just tell the kid in the 15Bs at Trinity that you're irrelevant to Rugby because you aren't going to help us win a Bledisloe... Sport is unlike Business where it is a viable concept to shrink to success.

How would promotion work in your tiered system if it's not a whole program concept? Say Aloys have a good 1sts in Div 3 of this all remedying Sydney Schools comp and with some year 11s they have a not bad two year period. Do you put them up to Div 2, which would be of a higher standard but they now have none of those players that got them there? Are you assuming that getting a few wins will just result on an influx of Rugby Players to the school?

Games have been streamed and there is absolutely no evidence to suggest Joeys v Knox would suddenly be the biggest draw in Sydney. Good game, I have no doubt but there is no derby there like playing Joeys v Riverview and I reckon a lot more Knox people would have a bigger buzz around playing Barker or Waverley.

You know why Australia have dominated Rugby League? Yes it's a smaller global game but it's because we have numbers playing it at all levels creating depth. They run out multiple junior rep sides to compete with each other for the NSW spots. CIS, CCC, CHS etc much like our GPS, CAS, ISA, CHS. From here the Aus U18s have had far more success than the Wallabies over the last decade in International competition. What does this tell you? The system beyond Schools is broken. Club - Super Rugby is where we let our players down. The talent is produced. The issue is it isn't nurtured into professionals.

I think you have misinterpreted my Div 3 1st XV concept. Since SGS & SBHS have dropped down how many have been selected for GPS 1sts or 2nds? Maybe 1,2 at most. If we ran a 3rd Div I can almost guarantee none of these players from their 1st XVs would be selected in a higher rep side such as NSW Gen Blue or NSW Schools as you assume they aren't as good due to being in Div 3... Once again we further dilute our talent pool.


As much as we love to watch it, would it really attract the money you think it would? Cluch went under with 3m in Debts. GPS Rugby wasn't their only product but I reckon it would have been one of the major ones. Rugby need the Wallabies to have relative success to make money in the media.

Once again your over complicating things.
For a start GPS banned clutch from commentating on the games(as they didn’t want things hyped up). They have banned Foxtel from trying to buy tv rights to there games. It’s obvious you don’t want private school sport at 1st 15 level commercialised or professionalised more or higher pressure competition structure for the talented boys eg 1st 15 level. Joeys vs Knox north shore local derby has same pulling power as Joeys v Waverley.
makes no sense in 2023, 3 seperate associations in Sydney. And teams go up a divisions based on 16A results/1st 15 results . No forced promo/relegation, just teams go up or down based on performance reviews. And I also support sponsors sponsoring private school sport eg McDonalds Sydney rugby championship. You clearly don’t want the talented boys exposed to too much media attention/commercialisation of the sports programs . And think the schools should stay in isolation away from RA/McDonald’s/Foxtel , and other commercial stuff. And you say shrink model , hardly . My model has the strong teams all actually playing each other , and putting more pressure/competition on the boys which is a good thing, as you want junior pathways to be higher eg SG Ball/Harold Matthews style. Scot’s have professional high tech facilities , don’t see why competition structures shouldn’t be higher, as well as RA and other sports bodies interfering in the school sports programs , which is exactly want RA want to do. These schools top teams should have a sports academy culture eg like NRL junior rep teams .

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

That was a tough read.

How would your model develop Rugby players beyond the silo of 1st Division? Sure, they are potentially playing teams to be considered at their level but it's now a lower level and would be considered that by selectors of State & National sides. We then dilute the pool of players to put into pathways which are intended to help the Wallabies which was your point in the initial post.

As for "overcomplicating things. I'm not the one rearranging the chairs around the table, I'm saying your focus is on a system that isn't broken and is sustaining talent development. Realignment needs to be done through Country Rugby and the CHS. RA should be ploughing resources into these channels as well as Junior Club Rugby participation.

 

[Steve Jones]

That was a tough read.

How would your model develop Rugby players beyond the silo of 1st Division? Sure, they are potentially playing teams to be considered at their level but it's now a lower level and would be considered that by selectors of State & National sides. We then dilute the pool of players to put into pathways which are intended to help the Wallabies which was your point in the initial post.

As for "overcomplicating things. I'm not the one rearranging the chairs around the table, I'm saying your focus is on a system that isn't broken and is sustaining talent development. Realignment needs to be done through Country Rugby and the CHS. RA should be ploughing resources into these channels as well as Junior Club Rugby participation.

A tough read you say, nothing tough at all.

The current system isn’t working for the elite teams eg 16A/1st 15. It’s not a high enough standard eg Alos getting thrashed this yr . More depth and wider talent pool needs to be created . And higher playing standards. Eg Scot’s vs Waverley in competition matches not trials. These associations need to care about words like high performance and sport academies and helping OZ sport(not live in isolation like hippies) . RA still will help junior rep teams and Aussie schoolboys , but they also can start interfering in these schools sporting independence as can CA/FA etc . Stop having such an amateur outlook for these schools and start lifting competition standards and start forcing them to be part of the OZ sports pyramid. They have money and excellent facilities and that should be exploited and integrated with OZ sports bodies. Private schools are part of Oz sports pyramid or should be in my view .

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

How would this create anything more than what already exists? How many sides are going into Div 1? Lets say you had 6-8. There is still going to be a gap between the top 2 and the others from year to year. It's not the nature of the game to suddenly create a comp of 21/19 scores every week. Two rounds in the GPS created a lot of good footy for the teams. A lot more than they have played in previous years. CAS seemed pretty similar. Can't comment on ISA as I can't recall/didn't pay as much attention.

Aloys losing Rugby matches has more to do with the Schools Academic priority which they have a right to do even if us on a Rugby forum don't like it and the fact their enrolment is probably the smallest in the CAS. Playing in a 3rd Div wouldn't suddenly see them get stronger even if they won some more games because as you say anything other than 1sts & 16As don't matter. What would be the point of winning some more if it's irrelevant if it resulted in more players the next year.

Where is this "amateur outlook" out of curiosity. It's common for schools to have fulltime coaching, specialist S&C and great facilities. Go have a look at your local Premier Club and you'll see far more amateur set ups which surprise, surprise is where out talent stagnates. Steve Jones, I think you should channel your big pot stirring spoon into the Club Rugby forums and push for the improvement in those channels and how our talent once dispersed from U18s and below seems to be left treading water.

 

[Steve Jones]

How would this create anything more than what already exists? How many sides are going into Div 1? Lets say you had 6-8. There is still going to be a gap between the top 2 and the others from year to year. It's not the nature of the game to suddenly create a comp of 21/19 scores every week. Two rounds in the GPS created a lot of good footy for the teams. A lot more than they have played in previous years. CAS seemed pretty similar. Can't comment on ISA as I can't recall/didn't pay as much attention.

Aloys losing Rugby matches has more to do with the Schools Academic priority which they have a right to do even if us on a Rugby forum don't like it and the fact their enrolment is probably the smallest in the CAS. Playing in a 3rd Div wouldn't suddenly see them get stronger even if they won some more games because as you say anything other than 1sts & 16As don't matter. What would be the point of winning some more if it's irrelevant if it resulted in more players the next year.

Where is this "amateur outlook" out of curiosity. It's common for schools to have fulltime coaching, specialist S&C and great facilities. Go have a look at your local Premier Club and you'll see far more amateur set ups which surprise, surprise is where out talent stagnates. Steve Jones, I think you should channel your big pot stirring spoon into the Club Rugby forums and push for the improvement in those channels and how our talent once dispersed from U18s and below seems to be left treading water.

No pot stirring at all by me,

You seem happy to keep things the same and don’t see schools being part of national sport pathways, where as I do .
Alos can be more academic focused or not even have rugby anymore, it’s up to them . But having a merged association means weaker schools with weaker teams can go into appropriate divisions based on strength. And having a Sydney championship that’s harder to win with all the good school teams playing each other, means matches will be more competitive and higher standards.
The schools that have flashy coaches and flashy facilities , contradict themselves as they don’t do anything to improve the competition standards eg merged comp. A merged comp would lift standards . It seems these schools don’t want to be part of the sports pyramid to help the wallabies or Socceroos and want to be on isolation. I have said for many years, RA need to find junior elite club rugby I’m not disagreeing there .

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

I think they are already though. Look at the Aus U18s, U20s and the number of kids coming out of all associations.

Say if a kid at say Cranbrook was a very good Rugby player but the school is in Div 2. Woulnd't he be incentivised to enrol at Div 1 school is Rugby is an avenue for his future? Does this not kill off Rugby below Division 1 and lower our overall number of contributors? I know I'm posing hypotheticals here but so is the creation of a tiered High School system fixing the Wallabies.

I don't understand how coaches employed by the School in facilites built by the School are contradicting themselves. There objective is to win games for their School. I get the trend right now is 'alignment' and 'centralisation' but as you have mentioned SG Ball and Harold Matthews league comps, how do the Eels & Roosters work to make the Kangaroos better? They don't, they compete against each other and the best talent will continue to rise. The thing the League do well is the transition from age group competition through to Adult competition in State Leagues and onto NRL. Rugby drop the ball at this point and it is one of the reasons Crichton went to Souths in the first place. They showed exactly what the plan was while Rugby said great mate we want you but youll have to go be in Club land and then the Tahs might have a place blah blah.

RA have so much they need to be focused on I really think sticking their nose into re jigging one of the only systems working is going to be very low on it. I say working because our U18s/U20s would be a top 5 in the World consistently everything beyond this would be way down.

 

[Steve Jones]

I think they are already though. Look at the Aus U18s, U20s and the number of kids coming out of all associations.

Say if a kid at say Cranbrook was a very good Rugby player but the school is in Div 2. Woulnd't he be incentivised to enrol at Div 1 school is Rugby is an avenue for his future? Does this not kill off Rugby below Division 1 and lower our overall number of contributors? I know I'm posing hypotheticals here but so is the creation of a tiered High School system fixing the Wallabies.

I don't understand how coaches employed by the School in facilites built by the School are contradicting themselves. There objective is to win games for their School. I get the trend right now is 'alignment' and 'centralisation' but as you have mentioned SG Ball and Harold Matthews league comps, how do the Eels & Roosters work to make the Kangaroos better? They don't, they compete against each other and the best talent will continue to rise. The thing the League do well is the transition from age group competition through to Adult competition in State Leagues and onto NRL. Rugby drop the ball at this point and it is one of the reasons Crichton went to Souths in the first place. They showed exactly what the plan was while Rugby said great mate we want you but youll have to go be in Club land and then the Tahs might have a place blah blah.

RA have so much they need to be focused on I really think sticking their nose into re jigging one of the only systems working is going to be very low on it. I say working because our U18s/U20s would be a top 5 in the World consistently everything beyond this would be way down.

You keep going on about example of good player playing in Div 2. Well hello it’s happening now, star players in crap school teams has been going on for yrs and still is going on. ST Aloyious have a crap team this yr, but there are one or two good players this yr. Is it fair on them playing in a crap team. The current format right now has good players in crap school teams . Cranbrook for yrs at times has had average teams with one or two star players in the 1st 15. So what’s your solution to the good players at ST Aloyious this yr who had to play in a crap team?
And RA can interfere still at private schools , despite lots going on.

 

[Goosestep]

You keep going on about example of good player playing in Div 2. Well hello it’s happening now, star players in crap school teams has been going on for yrs and still is going on. ST Aloyious have a crap team this yr, but there are one or two good players this yr. Is it fair on them playing in a crap team. The current format right now has good players in crap school teams . Cranbrook for yrs at times has had average teams with one or two star players in the 1st 15. So what’s your solution to the good players at ST Aloyious this yr who had to play in a crap team?
And RA can interfere still at private schools , despite lots going on.

all I hear is yapping

 

[Steve Jones]

all I hear is yapping

So will the private schools put in better competitions to help the wallabies ?

 

[FRONTROW]

My take on the whole school boys/juniors especially in Sydney/NSW
Take the June long weekend comp and run it at the end of the year. Go head to head with the League juniors.
The current Long weekend comp was designed for Club rugby players but this has diminished, most rep teams have ring ins and the local district age group sometimes has only 1 team to choose its players from. Traditional yes , productive no. It lets talented union players dabble in league at the end of the year when no union is being played. Currently Harold Mats, SG Ball, jersey fleg league teams are training with squads of around 40 kids x 15 teams, do the maths If Sydney rugby were to run a comp over summer similar timing and format that would deny the cross code switch, involve Private school, public school, club rugby players and have kids playing more competitive rugby. The investment at school and club rugby during the year will be retained if the players are encouraged to commit to an end of season Reps comp.

Further to this i would encourage the District Hierarchy to offer contracts to talented players as they do in league, Im not suggesting it be even a monetary value but showing interest in a player and encouraging him to stay in the District or even union in general may stop the talent pool drain.

 

[Pfitzy]

Addendum: my club hosted the Northwest Schools Rugby Championship Youth (U14) final last Thursday. Arndell College defeated William Clarke narrowly. Great afternoon despite the gale blowing across the field of dreams.

Hopefully we can host the U16 version as well.

There is an appetite for communication and working together. Hopefully it is sustainable - key relationships make this work, not any sort of system, unfortunately.