Rugby schools, their players, and the pathway to Seniors

[Pfitzy]

He sees the games for school as an important part of being part of the school but is very excited to play for his local club post school.

And is that club running all the way through from Juniors to Colts to Seniors? That is an important connection I think.

In Sydney I've noticed some clubs have juniors and seniors as distinct entities, so while they share colours and a name, they're often not exactly in each other's pocket.

 

[Too little too late]

And is that club running all the way through from Juniors to Colts to Seniors? That is an important connection I think.

In Sydney I've noticed some clubs have juniors and seniors as distinct entities, so while they share colours and a name, they're often not exactly in each other's pocket.

Pfizy,

The junior clubs should be linked to the senior club, I think they do at a rep competition level.

The area I think it fails at is ensuring those who aren’t in the elite pathway’s know they have a place outside of that route.

The top will be looked after but the lower grade players need to be given a path to stay in the game.

Having played socially in the UK, they have a path for a young junior to keep playing with his mates. It centred around your junior club having a few paths, professional, competitive amateur and social amateur.

Or discussion should not be about the professional pathways (which in my opinion are well looked after), but rather keeping the lower grade juniors still in the game.

Build the base

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Cheers for the responses so far. Informative!



On this: when does the school season run? Is there enough room to fit it in around club if SJRU and Schools could do it? I assume GPS going to 2 rounds is a response to having less participants than years gone by.

With NRL on our doorstep I've been able to observe the rep program close up - from U17 through to U19 they play rep footy in the club pre-season. Kids are selected from the year before to go into Eels, Bears, Raiders etc. and then play a competition from there. Right now they're about halfway through the rep program and will finish in early April, just in time for kids to go back to club footy and play a full season.

It is tough but it produces battle-hardened kids ready for professional life in a lot of ways, and sorts the wheat from the chaff.

Unfortunately, I don't think so. I think they have the State Champs during the June Long Weekend and this has allowed some boys from to participate who wouldn't of during a normal school weekend but one of the competitions would have to move to fit in with the other. The schools that have compulsory sport then have the issue of the boys playing a Summer Sport on the weekend.

I could see it being workable up until U16s where they become exposed to the Opens and the training schedule that can be 3 morning & 3 afternoons quite often.

I get your point about the battle-hardened kids in League, but I don't blame our juniors at Club or School competitions for this not happening. I think we created a void in the post school years when any player in an academy was brought into professional set ups then cotton woolled until they debut then they break down because they have barely played for 2/3 years. This seems to be shifting with DC sending players back to SS last year and the increase in Waratah A games prior to the SS season.

 

[Pfitzy]

I could see it being workable up until U16s where they become exposed to the Opens and the training schedule that can be 3 morning & 3 afternoons quite often.

That would be tough. I struggle with 2 ... a year

Increasingly kids are being forced to choose between summer and winter sport at a certain level, so I applaud schools for continuing to promote both. I think those kids on the pathway for rugby already know their summer sport isn't going to be a priority. The NRL's programs basically don't allow it because of the load.

Going back to the league example where reps run from Jan-Apr having already selected their kids at the end of the previous season:

If there was a way to shift schools rugby earlier that would help the junior situation e.g. Schools run Rugby Feb-April and then SJRU can run from May-Aug then the same kids can keep going through. Also helps the HSC kids get their school rugby out of the way.

Of course it circles back to it being a winter sport and the school having it's rugby identity on those chilly days where you take on your ancient rivals.

And it creates a situation where the club's U16-18 might not start until after minis/Juniors are kicking off. Not ideal for the club.

So it isn't something I'm going to change but it was worth typing that out to cement it in my brain

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

That would be tough. I struggle with 2 ... a year

Increasingly kids are being forced to choose between summer and winter sport at a certain level, so I applaud schools for continuing to promote both. I think those kids on the pathway for rugby already know their summer sport isn't going to be a priority. The NRL's programs basically don't allow it because of the load.

Going back to the league example where reps run from Jan-Apr having already selected their kids at the end of the previous season:

If there was a way to shift schools rugby earlier that would help the junior situation e.g. Schools run Rugby Feb-April and then SJRU can run from May-Aug then the same kids can keep going through. Also helps the HSC kids get their school rugby out of the way.

Of course it circles back to it being a winter sport and the school having it's rugby identity on those chilly days where you take on your cross-town rivals.

And it creates a situation where the club's U16-18 might not start until after minis/Juniors are kicking off. Not ideal for the club.

So it isn't something I'm going to change but it was worth typing that out to cement it in my brain

This is the biggest hurdle. They are Gods in their own little world who don't care about Club Rugby and tbf aren't required to either as they are paid to do a job by the school for the school. If RA were to run U18s program at a different time of year they may be able to influence Schools Rugby to fit the calendar, but I also think this has been designed to fit with most school schedules (Holidays etc)

 

[Flavio]

In my experience I had 2 boys who liked the game but were never going to be worldbeaters. This was OK in the junior years when they were in a team with mates but when teams got graded they lost a bit of interest. However they still got to play with players of similar standard. When it got to the under 14's where it droppped down to one team they would have been playing with rep players. What resulted with the previous B team kids that stayed on was they got no game time as they were seen as not being good enough (the A players were a pack of wankers anyway) and the next year never returned to the game.

 

[Goosestep]

I have had a look at the competitions that have schools based in Sydney. There appears to be multiple competitions with varying size and investment, with a belief that putting them together in some form would just result in thrashings and humiliations etc. At the same time, looking back at the history of a competition like GPS, it appears to be shrinking and the quality varies considerably year to year. Separate schools competitions may soon be a luxury we can't afford.

Sorry how has the “quality” varied from year to year? … how you gauging this ? By what metrics? The level of schoolboy rugby has if anything been increasing..

“a luxury we can’t afford” you sound hilarious

 

[Pfitzy]

When it got to the under 14's where it droppped down to one team they would have been playing with rep players. What resulted with the previous B team kids that stayed on was they got no game time as they were seen as not being good enough (the A players were a pack of wankers anyway) and the next year never returned to the game.

Did it drop to one team just because of natural attrition? Can be tough to keep kids interested for long periods of time in any sport

 

[AroundTheAnkles]

In my experience I had 2 boys who liked the game but were never going to be worldbeaters. This was OK in the junior years when they were in a team with mates but when teams got graded they lost a bit of interest. However they still got to play with players of similar standard. When it got to the under 14's where it droppped down to one team they would have been playing with rep players. What resulted with the previous B team kids that stayed on was they got no game time as they were seen as not being good enough (the A players were a pack of wankers anyway) and the next year never returned to the game.

Sounds like a club and coach issue. My son loves his rugby and played both school, club and various rep levels of the game. His club team has consolidated down from 3 teams to 2 and then 1 by U15’s. The team is about half rep players and they end up in A or B grade. Some of the least talented boys were in the lowest grade possible when we had 3 teams. Due to a good club culture that insisted on equal game time, good coaching and the right attitude from the rep boys they have all thrived as they were forced to move up grades, even playing in the GF last year. »

 

[Lammy]

Interesting stuff and I'm not surprised BJRU have this sort of initiative - things in Brisbane just seem better aligned than Sydney in general.

Am I right in my assumption that QLD schools still finish at age 17? That would change the dynamic a little for an U18 comp in club land.

Se.are.17 and some are 18. Lightning Colts is for both age groups and is a good transition into Colts. It also gives those schools without much off a comp.to play in a chance to play some regular games. It definitely has grown over the past few years and there is a good mix of players from rep boys down to regular rugby enthusiasts.

 

[AroundTheAnkles]

I didn’t have anything on last weekend and was nearby so I stopped into watch Sydney Uni Colts play Hunter. It was great to see a number of young players I know of who are in various pathway academies out on the field rather than wrapped in cotton wool. The footy was good and there was plenty of banter amongst young lads on the sidelines. If it had been during term I imagine the crowd would have been a little bigger and there might have been a few more female supporters around as well. All in all, it would be hard to come up with a better advertisement for convincing a young bloke to keep playing rugby after school or junior club.

 

[Jack Gallagher]

Pathway example... JL Bacon and Jayden Mojalli playing first grade from school​

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St Pius X College 1st XV vs Oakhill College 1st XV
22 - 31​

By Oscar Nowak Allcorn, Oakhill Y9 Student & NSW Rugby Junior Reporter
Photos courtesy of Michael Remaili
8th August 2020

The faces of the Oakhill men said it all when the full-time whistle was blown, sealing the win just as the buzzer went off at Chaplin Oval with a final score of 22-32 in the first round of the ISA competition.

Oakhill started the game kicking the ball to St Pius. Oakhill got the ball back immediately following a Pius error. As soon as Oakhill got the ball they consistently ran into Pius defence, gaining valuable metres at every phase. After a few phases Oakhill got very close to the try line. Jayden Mojalli powered over the line putting Oakhill’s first points on the board. The conversion by James Skuodas was successful.

The game was filled with intensity from the kick off with some great tackles and individual plays by Oakhill's Jett Peters, Doug Sullivan, Sam Pickard and Pius’ Will Chan, Stu Dingley and Brynnmore Mendell.

10 minutes after the kick off Oakhill scored again. Oakhill had their backline set and they passed the ball to fullback Jordan Lee Bacon. Bacon received the ball and put on some great footwork, stepped 3 of Pius’ defenders and sprinted 50 metres before putting the ball down to score. The conversion was successful by James Skuadas.

2 minutes later Oakhill put more points up on the scoreboard. Oakhill was 30 metres from the tryline when Doug Sullivan made a line break and drew Pius’ fullback towards him just before he passed it to scrum-half Finn Watkins. Watkins sprinted to the try line and scored. The conversion was successful by James Skuadas taking the score to 0 - 21 Oakhill's way.

In the first 20 minutes of the game Oakhill had the most possession of the ball compared to Pius. Pius, let down by simple things like missing tackles and unorganised defensive structure, allowed Oakhill play to their own style and dictate the game.

This changed late in the second half, with Pius gaining more possession of the ball and starting to look promising in getting some points on the scoreboard.

With 5 minutes left in the first half, Oakhill gave away a penalty to Pius just on the sideline 20 metres out from Pius’ try line. Pius passed the ball very quickly through the backline all the way to winger Gregor Dingley. By the time Dingley got the ball he was 10 metres from the try line. He sprinted to the try line and scored Pius’ first points in the game. The conversion by Will Chan was unsuccessful.

Half time score was sitting at 5 - 21 to Oakhill.

Pius started the second half kicking to Oakhill.

The play in the first 10 minutes of the second half was outstanding. Oakhill’s Doug Sullivan, Jordan Lee Bacon (try saver), Finn Watkins (try saver), Cooper Griffin and Ethan Barone delivered some great tackles. Pius’s Brynnmore Mendell, Fred Baddock, Gregor Dingley and Stu Dingley also showcased some excellent tackling.

15 minutes into the second half Oakhill scored. Centre Josh Basso made a break 30 metres from the try line and the only thing stopping him to get to the try line was Pius’ fullback. Basso, with 2 Oakhill men supporting him, passed the ball to winger Nick Charlwood, who scored untouched.

5 minutes later, Pius found the tryline. Pius was right on the tryline and Oakhill did very well defending their line but after 12 phases of constant tackling and rucking, Pius’s forwards found the tryline and scored, taking the score to 10-26. Conversion was not successful.

8 minutes later Pius scored again. Pius got very close to the try line again and after 15 or so phases Pius’s scrum half Zac Davidson put the ball over the tryline and scored.

At this point of the game the scoreboard was sitting at 15-26. Oakhill was feeling the pressure as they dropped some of the intensity they started the second half with.

5 minutes later Pius put more points on the board. Fullback Stu Dingly made a line break on the 40 metre line and managed to break through another tackle to score. The conversion was successful making the score 22-26.

With 1 minute left in the game, both teams were working extremely hard to either secure the win for Oakhill or for Pius to score again.

Pius had the ball, they passed it to their backline having one overlap on the wing. They looked extremely promising to score and take the win but Oakhill’s winger James Skoudas took the interception and sprinited to the try line and scored just as the final buzzer went off. The crowd went wild as they could not believe what they just saw.

That last minute try made the final score 22-31 Oakhill’s win.

A great game of footy played by both teams especially in the second half.

 

[moa999]

If also add at least in Sydney a handful of the club teams are directly or indirectly linked to schools.
Div 1 - St. Pats, Waverley
Div 3 - Knox, Old Barker, Old Ignations
Div 5 - Kings

The Sydney schools comp seems to go through phases. The reduction of GPS to six teams in the top two grades has generally improved the games and allowed them to go two rounds this year, as has the reduction in "S". Some schools outside GPS are less restrictive.

The timing of the rep games also makes things hard. CAS squad selected on the back of 2 games, whereas GPS has had 6.
Ideally it would be great to see some form of seeded combined comp in Term 3 on the basis of Term 2 games, but I suspect the politics in that is all too difficult.

 

[propsarespeedy]

I don't usually dip my toe into these turbulent waters, as I have never been part of the rugby schools system, though I know people who are and they strive to do great things. Sometimes they get frustrated, and in listening to their frustrations, I share them.

To help with my understanding, I'm here to ask for a bit of education (in the schools rugby forum - ha!), so I can get a better appreciation of where things lie, and how I can solve a problem I'm having.

I'll also say up front: thanks for your time in reading this. My goal is to try and make the game strong in all areas, and have conversations about the health of the game; there appears to be a belief across the code that "as long as my backyard is neat, the game is fine" and it simply isn't true.

Preface: I'm a former President and current Club Secretary, Life Member, Registrar, Referee, and Player at Renegades Rugby.

I'm also a Board Member for NSW Suburban Rugby, and regularly deal with clubs of all sizes and the hardworking people that run them. We share issues to greater or lesser degrees in the rugby landscape, and I'll focus on our perspective for now.

Renegades Rugby are small club in Kellyville and, in addition to having a couple of cracks at starting a Junior club, we've tried a number of times to recruit Colts for our club (U21 in Subbies). This is critical to the survival of our club; I'm in my 40s and can't keep packing down in the front row, as much as my chiropractor loves it. I see an U21 team as an essential pathway toward feeding our senior grades, and most importantly keeping players in the game.

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I've got a few contacts in the Junior Rugby scene, and a pattern I noticed in some clubs is they peter out at the U15/U16 level, despite having good numbers below that. When I inquired as to why, the story was generally the same: attrition exists, but kids who go to rugby schools are generally (not always) restricted from playing for their village club after a certain time.

The knock-on effect is that the kids who do NOT go to a rugby school don't have enough left for an Opens (U18) team, and so either go into a joint venture team or simply stop playing. The danger here is we're missing a pool of candidates for senior amateur rugby, purely down to circumstance.

Question 1: is it common for kids in school XVs to be restricted from playing for their club?

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I know some teachers in schools that have rugby programs. They would like to promote local clubs to kids living in the area who are leaving school, but this is discouraged as it is seen as some form of favouritism or some form of grooming behaviour.

Question 2: is this the experience of anyone here who may be connected to schools?

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I have had a look at the competitions that have schools based in Sydney. There appears to be multiple competitions with varying size and investment, with a belief that putting them together in some form would just result in thrashings and humiliations etc. At the same time, looking back at the history of a competition like GPS, it appears to be shrinking and the quality varies considerably year to year. Separate schools competitions may soon be a luxury we can't afford.

Question 3: is there any movement toward a combined, graded schools competition in Sydney?

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This is a quick one but importantly leads onto converting age players to Colts and Senior rugby.

Subbies includes data on registered play numbers, teams, and clubs in its annual report every year.

Question 4: is there any data available on how many teams schools are fielding?

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School leavers have a lot to think about - the HSC, their ongoing education or vocational pathway. They might not even be living in the same area once they leave school. However, there are going to be those who just want to play rugby and aren't on the professional or premier pathway. Some will go to schools that have contacts at a senior club and get to a Colts program there. What happens to the rest?

I've tried emailing a few schools in the area in order to get a little of their time, and it falls into a hole. The Development Officers at NSW Rugby HQ have offered adviced (including contacts) and it seems every answer to my question is "put in more time" that I don't have for no guarantee of a result.

Question 5: how do I get in contact with people who finish school, love rugby and just want to play rugby outside the bounds of a professional pathway?

If you're someone who is a contact that would be bloody helpful. Hit me up.

I don't have much in regards to the other questions, but as for question 1, generally until a student is playing in the 1sts and 2nds they are allowed to play club rugby but once they make those teams they have to only play school or possibly during the school season. Regardless of this, past 13s and 14s, students typically will decide to focus on school rugby. This is very to year however, for example in the Scots 14s last year about 8-9 players in the A's and many others from the B's were playing club rugby in same shape or form (mostly for Easts) but in some age groups only a very small amount of players from the top teams will be playing club rugby. This may be because they're playing league or have chosen to focus on school. It really depends on if the boys in that age group have encouraged and urged there mates to play club and created a culture of playing for a club. I think it's vital to play 2 games a weekend from young till U13 and 14 but I can understand why a player in 15's and 16s would want to focus on school. This unfortunately means that clubs with a lot of boys playing school rugby may struggle for numbers in 15s or 16s and 18s. State champs is vital for bringing players into club rugby as many players will join village clubs and play because of the prospect of being able to play at state champs and be noticed.

 

[Pfitzy]

If also add at least in Sydney a handful of the club teams are directly or indirectly linked to schools.
Div 1 - St. Pats, Waverley
Div 3 - Knox, Old Barker, Old Ignations
Div 5 - Kings

Waverley basically doesn't have colts at this point.
Knox seems to have a good Colts setup, but their senior ranks have shrunk.
Barker and Iggies are barely two senior grades and Iggies have forfeited Colts recently.
Kings were a powerhouse higher division club then it exploded. They don't have Colts any more but have managed to field 2 Grades more recently.

You would like to think that clubs with a school affiliation have a production line of talent to keep pushing their numbers, but this just doesn't seem to be the case.

Overarching all this: Colts appear to be more prone to Euro holidays around this time of year

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

People aren’t playing Rugby as much when they leave school. If you’re bloke that played in the 4ths for example it’s more than likely you won’t ever play again which isn’t like it was once upon a time. Contact sport will become more and more niche IMO.

With this in mind the name of the Clubs can restrict their growth. Everyone is welcome to play for Old Ignatians but I can imagine it feels a bit awkward to rock up to a place with a name like that if you a an individual who might be in the area.

 

[RedOrDead]

Waverley basically doesn't have colts at this point.
Knox seems to have a good Colts setup, but their senior ranks have shrunk.
Barker and Iggies are barely two senior grades and Iggies have forfeited Colts recently.
Kings were a powerhouse higher division club then it exploded. They don't have Colts any more but have managed to field 2 Grades more recently.

You would like to think that clubs with a school affiliation have a production line of talent to keep pushing their numbers, but this just doesn't seem to be the case.

Overarching all this: Colts appear to be more prone to Euro holidays around this time of year

Especially with colts, culture will change year to year. The 2020 and 2019 graduated class of Barker had a really strong rugby culture. Two very strong social teams in year 12 who both graduated, and then many went on to play Barker Old Boys (BOBS). This meant in 2021 every week there were too many boys to field a team, and some boys would have to miss out. However, that 2019 class is now too old for colts, and the 2021 and 2022 classes did not have comparable culture. In fact, only one boy (who has missed the entire season due to injury) joined the BOBs program after school...

Additionally, it's the season of "European Seasons," which means numbers are dwindling.

I think we are just seeing an age group that lacks footy culture in the colts currently. I'm sure Iggy's and Waverley will be able to replenish numbers in the near future.

 

[Crashy]

Dont really know where to post this but hear the 2023 Waratah Shield has grown in terms of schools participating after being on death's door for while.
Anyone know which schools are in it this year and where to find tables / ladders etc?

 

[Steve Jones]

CAS/ISA/GPS need to merge in Sydney, and get put into different divisions.

im sick of big schools eg Joeys Knox Grammar , only playing on trial games.
These private schools need to have higher standard competitions to help the wallabies , as opposed to just doing their own thing in a closed shop. Don’t these schools care about helping the Wallabies win world cups/beat the All Blacks, by having higher competition structures.
It’s crazy in 2023 that these schools are in different associations. They need to merge into one association eg it would help higher competition standards at 1st 15, which ultimately helps the boys rugby development.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Private school system does not hold back the Wallabies. The lack of other systems producing talent leaves us thin along with the lack of input from RA to grow non traditional routes. The Private systems subsidise the national body to a cost the governing body could not afford with the onus they take in organisation.

Would merging them be an entire school concept or just a 1st XV for you? Some schools run what would be a top tier 1st XV but a weak overall program. If they end up in a Div 1 it’s likely you wreck the program entirely which is bad for Rugby.

The idea makes sense but feels like a sugar hit. The associations also producing rep sides provide more exposure for players. Kids in a div 3 first XV rep side would be looked over no doubt.

An idea I’d support would be a Cup Style knockout like the Waratah shield but with proper buy in not just sending the 16Bs to play Eddies 1st XV and building their reputation.