Rugby - not set pieces
- Thread starter Lee Grant
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Larno
Ward Prentice (10)
Just watching the ACC semi-final between Stade Francais and Clermont and have noticed something. Clermont are playing Brent Russell at 10 and I've only ever know him to be a fullback or winger. Does anybody know if he has any history of playing outhalf? It would be a bizarre decision to stick him in such a key position for a cup semi-final if he has no prior experience of it.
rugbysmartarse
Alan Cameron (40)
Haha, gold. What a wanker
T
Travi34
Guest
He didn't mention he was taking Kingi with him??? usually he flies in solo, comes home otherwise...
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Referees
• Andre Watson has confirmed that some apparently bizarre maul rulings by Craig Joubert in the Bulls v Chiefs game were correct. When the Chiefs peeled off some mauls leaving a “tank” of Bulls players only, Joubert did not invoke “truck and trailer” when the Chiefs opposed the tank from the front, notwithstanding that the ball was at the back. He penalised the Chiefs for opposing another tank from the side. Joubert mentioned that a maul vacated by defenders remained the original maul provided that it kept its original line.
This may seem to contradict the definition of what a maul is but Joubert's on-field rulings are consistent with the Games Management Guidelines for Community Level Rugby in Australia 2011 which, no doubt now, apply to Super Rugby also.
And we thought the maul was almost dead not too long ago.
• I am reluctant to bag one of the amateur officials, without whom our sport would be impossible. I won't name him but the TMO in the Gordon v Parramatta TV game had a real shocker. Matt McDougall of Gordon was tackled and his leg, then his hip, were seen to be in touch before he grounded the ball, which he held at all times. As commentator Brett Papworth mentioned: “The word 'inexplicable' comes to mind.” Perhaps, somehow, the TMO did not have access to the head on shot, though why the viewers got to see it twice, and he not once, is a mystery.
• Vinny Munro Force v Crusaders pinged Nick Cummins after being tackled by SBW and, no longer held, got up with the pill. Fair enough: RWC referee Jonathon Kaplan did something similar earlier in the season, although other RWC referees, like Bryce Lawrence, have said “Not held" in some games and spread their arms out absolving the player getting up with the pill.
But later in that Perth game on Saturday night SBW himself was tackled, by the Rabbit, and not being held, was permitted by Munro to get up with the ball. Within the same minute Corey Flynn went to ground, ankle tapped maybe, but was then permitted to get up, after being held briefly by Brown Dog before he did so. He scored a try seconds later.
The next day another RWC referee, Dave Pearson, allowed Isa Nacewa to get up with the pill playing for Leinster v Toulouse in the Heineken Cup semi-final after going to ground in a tackle.
Hey guys, we don't mind how you referee the laws. Go strictly by the law book, and follow guidelines or IRB rulings which clarify the laws, by all means. We are even not that fussed if you ignore some laws but follow conventions that referees use, such as: allowing scrummies to throw the ball into scrums skew, though not into lineouts.
What gets up our noses are inconsistencies such as one RWC referee allowing one thing and another, not. Worse still is the case where a referee does not allow a player to do something in a game but then allows other players to do the same thing later in the same match.
It is possible that Munro saw Cummins infringe, but not SBW and Flynn do the same thing, but we will be watching his consistency on the tackle law closely from now on.
.
• Andre Watson has confirmed that some apparently bizarre maul rulings by Craig Joubert in the Bulls v Chiefs game were correct. When the Chiefs peeled off some mauls leaving a “tank” of Bulls players only, Joubert did not invoke “truck and trailer” when the Chiefs opposed the tank from the front, notwithstanding that the ball was at the back. He penalised the Chiefs for opposing another tank from the side. Joubert mentioned that a maul vacated by defenders remained the original maul provided that it kept its original line.
This may seem to contradict the definition of what a maul is but Joubert's on-field rulings are consistent with the Games Management Guidelines for Community Level Rugby in Australia 2011 which, no doubt now, apply to Super Rugby also.
And we thought the maul was almost dead not too long ago.
• I am reluctant to bag one of the amateur officials, without whom our sport would be impossible. I won't name him but the TMO in the Gordon v Parramatta TV game had a real shocker. Matt McDougall of Gordon was tackled and his leg, then his hip, were seen to be in touch before he grounded the ball, which he held at all times. As commentator Brett Papworth mentioned: “The word 'inexplicable' comes to mind.” Perhaps, somehow, the TMO did not have access to the head on shot, though why the viewers got to see it twice, and he not once, is a mystery.
• Vinny Munro Force v Crusaders pinged Nick Cummins after being tackled by SBW and, no longer held, got up with the pill. Fair enough: RWC referee Jonathon Kaplan did something similar earlier in the season, although other RWC referees, like Bryce Lawrence, have said “Not held" in some games and spread their arms out absolving the player getting up with the pill.
But later in that Perth game on Saturday night SBW himself was tackled, by the Rabbit, and not being held, was permitted by Munro to get up with the ball. Within the same minute Corey Flynn went to ground, ankle tapped maybe, but was then permitted to get up, after being held briefly by Brown Dog before he did so. He scored a try seconds later.
The next day another RWC referee, Dave Pearson, allowed Isa Nacewa to get up with the pill playing for Leinster v Toulouse in the Heineken Cup semi-final after going to ground in a tackle.
Hey guys, we don't mind how you referee the laws. Go strictly by the law book, and follow guidelines or IRB rulings which clarify the laws, by all means. We are even not that fussed if you ignore some laws but follow conventions that referees use, such as: allowing scrummies to throw the ball into scrums skew, though not into lineouts.
What gets up our noses are inconsistencies such as one RWC referee allowing one thing and another, not. Worse still is the case where a referee does not allow a player to do something in a game but then allows other players to do the same thing later in the same match.
It is possible that Munro saw Cummins infringe, but not SBW and Flynn do the same thing, but we will be watching his consistency on the tackle law closely from now on.
.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Tactics
• Cheetahs v Brumbies - The Brumbies demonstrated why it's not always a great idea to contest an attacking lineout near one's own goal line. Alexander and Colby lifted Kimlin up but the ball went over him to the Bulls receiver. When the Cheetahs pod mauled forward it was stopped but the ball was shifted quickly to try scorer Oosthuizen who ran through a gap with the 3 mentioned Brumbies guys not being able to scramble to block it.
Commentators
• Phil Steele, a popular after dinner speaker in his spare time also works for the BBC and does interviews with coaches during the game, as the French sometimes do. Yes Phil, we did notice last weekend as you interviewed Dai Young during the Dragons v Cardiff Blues match that you said:“the Dragons are on fire.”
• Phil Kearns (of all people ) said astutely: “It's OK to be flat, but you have to be running onto the ball when you're flat. You can't be flat and stationary.” So true Kearnsie, but fancy an old hooker knowing that.
Goal kicking
• Romain Teulet (otherwise known as “Robocop”) of Castres is only 168 cms and about 78kgs. He has the leading goal kicking success rate in the Top 14 at 85%. Next are Jonathon Wisnieski of Racing and Jonny Wilkinson of Toulon. Charlie Hodgson, who had an 84% goal kicking success rate for Sale before the recent London Irish game is probably the leader in the English Premiership.
I was watching a Dragons league match the same weekend and it was mentioned that Jamie Soward had a 91% success rate. So league kickers are better? It ain't necessarily so. You can't compare success rates in the two codes even when players have taken about the same number of kicks in their seasons because the average league penalty kick is much easier. Why?:
Firstly: a penalty kick is worth 3 points in union but only 2 in league; so a union penalty kick, even though difficult, is worthwhile.
Secondly: if the ball doesn't go dead in league from the penalty kick at goal, the defenders get the ball back from a tap kick on their 20 metre line. Since kicks from close to touch, or long kicks, often don't go dead, league goal kickers don't try them unless there are special circumstances.
By contrast, a union side has a good chance of getting the ball back after a missed kick at goal. A ball that stays live in the deeper in-goal areas of rugby union after a miss often has to be grounded by defenders and then drop-kicked from the the 22.
Thirdly: league teams get a new set of possessions with a penalty. If they could kick at goal it is also likely that they could punt the ball to touch in a favourable position to start a new set of tackles from.
Medical
• Danie Rossouw - If players want to sledge him they should recall that he missed Round 1 this year because of an allergic reaction to insect repellent. They can mention attempted suicide to the big fella but I'm not going to.
Quotes
• Andrew Hore, after the Canes beat the Reds “Hopefully we put a few smiles on the faces and we'll get a few more people back on Friday and we can all go shoot a few ducks on the weekend.” The ducks wouldn't have been smiling. I'm sure they don't anyway, though once a duck went into his local shop to buy a chapstick – and said to put it on his bill; so you never know. Agree, that was a quap joke.
• Cheetahs v Brumbies - The Brumbies demonstrated why it's not always a great idea to contest an attacking lineout near one's own goal line. Alexander and Colby lifted Kimlin up but the ball went over him to the Bulls receiver. When the Cheetahs pod mauled forward it was stopped but the ball was shifted quickly to try scorer Oosthuizen who ran through a gap with the 3 mentioned Brumbies guys not being able to scramble to block it.
Commentators
• Phil Steele, a popular after dinner speaker in his spare time also works for the BBC and does interviews with coaches during the game, as the French sometimes do. Yes Phil, we did notice last weekend as you interviewed Dai Young during the Dragons v Cardiff Blues match that you said:“the Dragons are on fire.”
• Phil Kearns (of all people ) said astutely: “It's OK to be flat, but you have to be running onto the ball when you're flat. You can't be flat and stationary.” So true Kearnsie, but fancy an old hooker knowing that.
Goal kicking
• Romain Teulet (otherwise known as “Robocop”) of Castres is only 168 cms and about 78kgs. He has the leading goal kicking success rate in the Top 14 at 85%. Next are Jonathon Wisnieski of Racing and Jonny Wilkinson of Toulon. Charlie Hodgson, who had an 84% goal kicking success rate for Sale before the recent London Irish game is probably the leader in the English Premiership.
I was watching a Dragons league match the same weekend and it was mentioned that Jamie Soward had a 91% success rate. So league kickers are better? It ain't necessarily so. You can't compare success rates in the two codes even when players have taken about the same number of kicks in their seasons because the average league penalty kick is much easier. Why?:
Firstly: a penalty kick is worth 3 points in union but only 2 in league; so a union penalty kick, even though difficult, is worthwhile.
Secondly: if the ball doesn't go dead in league from the penalty kick at goal, the defenders get the ball back from a tap kick on their 20 metre line. Since kicks from close to touch, or long kicks, often don't go dead, league goal kickers don't try them unless there are special circumstances.
By contrast, a union side has a good chance of getting the ball back after a missed kick at goal. A ball that stays live in the deeper in-goal areas of rugby union after a miss often has to be grounded by defenders and then drop-kicked from the the 22.
Thirdly: league teams get a new set of possessions with a penalty. If they could kick at goal it is also likely that they could punt the ball to touch in a favourable position to start a new set of tackles from.
Medical
• Danie Rossouw - If players want to sledge him they should recall that he missed Round 1 this year because of an allergic reaction to insect repellent. They can mention attempted suicide to the big fella but I'm not going to.
Quotes
• Andrew Hore, after the Canes beat the Reds “Hopefully we put a few smiles on the faces and we'll get a few more people back on Friday and we can all go shoot a few ducks on the weekend.” The ducks wouldn't have been smiling. I'm sure they don't anyway, though once a duck went into his local shop to buy a chapstick – and said to put it on his bill; so you never know. Agree, that was a quap joke.
Jnor
Peter Fenwicke (45)
I'll give you a 'fourthly' for your goalkicking comparison, Lee.
Has anyone considered that perhaps the different shapes of a rugby ball vs. a mungo ball means that the latter flies through the air on a more consistent trajectory or is more stable?
Just a half-baked idea but maybe it has some merit?
Has anyone considered that perhaps the different shapes of a rugby ball vs. a mungo ball means that the latter flies through the air on a more consistent trajectory or is more stable?
Just a half-baked idea but maybe it has some merit?
yourmatesam
Desmond Connor (43)
Good work Lee. Great thread mate!!
DPK
Peter Sullivan (51)
Yep, totally agree. But I tend to agree on the other points, not fully though.
I've noticed when I use a rugby ball, for goal kicking I aim an arc through the posts to a point on the ground behind them, but with a league ball I aim to kick a line through the posts. Just me though, I think.
Elfster
Alex Ross (28)
My only kicking experiences where with the old fashioned football - all leather. (Yes - I played back in the days where football boot were high-cut, only ever black and we wore proper jerseys: nice heavy cotton ones. ) The old leather ones were enigmatic marvels of aerodynamics, so much so that only a few lucky people in the teams I played with were allowed to kick. Even then the kicking was injudiciously random and the over-all quality of it brought an aura of profound mediocrity to even the most ordinary of games.
And that was when we played in ideal conditions. When played in the wet or on muddy games, the old leather footballs were something else. They got heavy and had an errant mind of their own. And as the game progessed and they absorbed even greater quantities of mud and water they ended up being heavier than some of the smaller players on the field.
Great days indeed!!
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
As a young shaver I saw the great All Black fullback, Don Clarke, kick at goal. Once I saw him kick 6 penalties in Dunedin to beat the Lions, who played all the rugby and scored tries; something the All Blacks couldn't do that day. The crowd booed him taking the last kick to win the match: literally something unheard of from Kiwi fans in those times.
What he could do with an old wet leather ball was amazing. He would often take a penalty kick from his own 10 yard line, which was about the same as doing one now about 10 metres further back.
The Mooloos and All Blacks would often have him take an early long, low percentage goal kick. He didn't get them all over but most often had the distance. With an unconverted try and a penalty both being 3 points in those days, he scared the crap out of opponents and put them on good behaviour for the rest of the match.
What he could do with an old wet leather ball was amazing. He would often take a penalty kick from his own 10 yard line, which was about the same as doing one now about 10 metres further back.
The Mooloos and All Blacks would often have him take an early long, low percentage goal kick. He didn't get them all over but most often had the distance. With an unconverted try and a penalty both being 3 points in those days, he scared the crap out of opponents and put them on good behaviour for the rest of the match.
Ali's Choice
Jimmy Flynn (14)
Both decisions were very tough calls, and I think supporters would have criticised the referee whichever way he had called.
I had a really close look at both these incidents the day after the game, with the benefit of sobriety. Whilst I concede that as a Crusaders fan both decisions benefited my team, I'm still fairly certain that the referee got both calls right. With Cummins, I believe he was tackled by SBW in a textbook low, sliding tackle around the ankles. SBW immediately released him as he is obliged to do, but there was no doubt in my mind that it was SBW's tackle that took him to ground. I can fully understand why Cummins felt he was not held, but re-watching the incident at real speed and then slow motion, I think it's pretty clear that a tackle had been effected.
In contrast, I don't think Flynn was ever tackled. During his movement to the line Brown missed him. Brown never effected a tackle. But in the process of missing him, Brown knocked him off balance and Flynn came to ground. It then appears that a secondary Force defender may have placed a hand on Flynn simultaneously with him getting to his feet and going again. At best for the Force it was simultaneous contact, at worse Flynn had just gotten to his feet. I don't believe this Force defender ever had contact with Flynn whilst he was clearly off his feet or on the ground. It was a very close call and one that referees must make immediately, without the benefit of hindsight or slow motion replays. If there was any doubt in the referee's mind, he has given in it the attacking player Flynn, and whilst that isn't Law, I'm comfortable with that too. It could be argued that he should have also given the benefit of the doubt to Cummins too.
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