Rugby News from unexpected places

[wamberal]

Mmm. Are you sure it is our game? If it is, that will put the cat amongst the pigeons in Mungoland.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Mmm. Are you sure it is our game? If it is, that will put the cat amongst the pigeons in Mungoland.

It's our game. Announced at the USA Rugby National Conference in Austin over the weekend.

 

[amirite]

I really cannot see the FIR giving up their two places in the Pro12, a tier 1 league, for what would be a t2 league even if it meant having 5 teams.

I cannot see them doing that either, but the reasoning is sound. Italy just does not get better development or performance outcomes from the Pro12 teams. I think the only good reason for them is TV rights/media deals, but this is speculation.

A few things worth highlighting:

1. Most Italian born/raised news caps are still attached to National Championship teams when first selected. These 2 sides aren't breeding the talent.
2. The Pro12 teams do not perform well. Maybe they will be at some point, but nothing past or present suggests that will be the case.
3. The non-Trevisian franchise alway struggles financially.

In fact, the only really positive thing these teams add is they attract uncapped international players who can later play for Italy, but seeing as Italy isn't as systematic about this as Scotland they're not getting their outcomes.
Basically, I just think the structure of Italian rugby needs a huge overhaul.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I cannot see them doing that either, but the reasoning is sound. Italy just does not get better development or performance outcomes from the Pro12 teams. I think the only good reason for them is TV rights/media deals, but this is speculation.

A few things worth highlighting:

1. Most Italian born/raised news caps are still attached to National Championship teams when first selected. These 2 sides aren't breeding the talent.
2. The Pro12 teams do not perform well. Maybe they will be at some point, but nothing past or present suggests that will be the case.
3. The non-Trevisian franchise alway struggles financially.

In fact, the only really positive thing these teams add is they attract uncapped international players who can later play for Italy, but seeing as Italy isn't as systematic about this as Scotland they're not getting their outcomes.

Basically, I just think the structure of Italian rugby needs a huge overhaul.

There's an push to move Zebre to Rome and some suggestion of replacing Treviso with a Veneto regional franchise (regions include Treviso, Padua and I think Rovigo.) and allow them to recruit players with the intent on being competitive first and then qualified for Italy second.

I actually do think Italy should look to enter a couple of franchises in this league as a means of further developing it as a talent base.

 

[amirite]

There's an push to move Zebre to Rome and some suggestion of replacing Treviso with a Veneto regional franchise (regions include Treviso, Padua and I think Rovigo.) and allow them to recruit players with the intent on being competitive first and then qualified for Italy second.

I actually do think Italy should look to enter a couple of franchises in this league as a means of further developing it as a talent base.

I think what the Italy model is now could be shaped into something successful, but that wouldn't involve teams in this league. Their old clubs that Italian rugby is built off just wouldn't allow it.

I think what a happy middle ground would look like it:

• Two Italian Pro12 teams - one Venetian, one Roman-based but repping the rest of Italy.
• Underneath that, a 8 team competition running at the same time of the year as thePro12. 4 of these clubs would be affiliated with one Pro12 team and 4 with the other. This comp would feature Treviso as a team, plus the 7 current National Championship of Excellence teams that have the best finances, structure, and suit the geographic footprint best. Much like the NBA D-league or VFL, unselected players would play in this league.

From here, I would look to basically hand the Pro 12 teams out to foreign administrators because what's going on there now is not producing talent en masse.

I would also invest heavily in a systematic process to:

1. Naturalise foreign players.
2. Source Italian descendants from elsewhere to play for Italy. Frankly, guys like Matt Carraro, Luke Romano, and Alex Corbisiero are examples of guys that could've played for Italy if managed well (Matt in particular SHOULD have - damn Aussie A!). There's 500k Brits, 1mil Aussies, 5k Kiwis, 75k SAfricans, and 16mil Argentinians of Italian decent.

Italian rugby can and should be better, they can't just keep cycling through perfectly good head national coaches and pretend that they're not sitting on top of a rubbish system.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I think what the Italy model is now could be shaped into something successful, but that wouldn't involve teams in this league. Their old clubs that Italian rugby is built off just wouldn't allow it.

I think what a happy middle ground would look like it:

• Two Italian Pro12 teams - one Venetian, one Roman-based but repping the rest of Italy.
• Underneath that, a 8 team competition running at the same time of the year as thePro12. 4 of these clubs would be affiliated with one Pro12 team and 4 with the other. This comp would feature Treviso as a team, plus the 7 current National Championship of Excellence teams that have the best finances, structure, and suit the geographic footprint best. Much like the NBA D-league or VFL, unselected players would play in this league.

From here, I would look to basically hand the Pro 12 teams out to foreign administrators because what's going on there now is not producing talent en masse.


I would also invest heavily in a systematic process to:

1. Naturalise foreign players.
2. Source Italian descendants from elsewhere to play for Italy. Frankly, guys like Matt Carraro, Luke Romano, and Alex Corbisiero are examples of guys that could've played for Italy if managed well (Matt in particular SHOULD have - damn Aussie A!). There's 500k Brits, 1mil Aussies, 5k Kiwis, 75k SAfricans, and 16mil Argentinians of Italian decent.

Italian rugby can and should be better, they can't just keep cycling through perfectly good head national coaches and pretend that they're not sitting on top of a rubbish system.

Well, 4 (5 with Treviso if they were to return) of the current 10 Excellenza team are already situated in Veneto. So they would naturally fall under that franchise if it were to the chosen path. The others are in Lombardia (1), Emilia-Romagna (3) amd Lazio, Rome (2).

I agree that they should be scouring the world for Italian qualified or descendant players and the use the Excellenza as a means of getting them into their system or qualifying them.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Okay. So there was evidently some mention of a pro league in Sth America during the USA/Brazil game. Not sure how on the money it is. Evidently one of the commentators Dallen Stafford mentioned something about 18 professional teams in 2018. Now, MLR will have 9 teams. Maybe he misspoke.

But Brazil are looking at a regional based 'Academy' league for next year and considering Chile and Uruguay are in desperate need of more competition it could be a solid spine. Who know's. I'll have to keep an eye out.

 

[amirite]

Well, 4 (5 with Treviso if they were to return) of the current 10 Excellenza team are already situated in Veneto. So they would naturally fall under that franchise if it were to the chosen path. The others are in Lombardia (1), Emilia-Romagna (3) amd Lazio, Rome (2).

I agree that they should be scouring the world for Italian qualified or descendant players and the use the Excellenza as a means of getting them into their system or qualifying them.

Agreed. I don't know if Italy are trying and failing to find these people or what.

I feel like the Italian Rugby Union will hear out managers of Italian-qualified players, but mustn't be chasing them. Someone like Biagi is just not that impressive, compared to the myriad of Italian-descended Argentines who are capped at lock but not getting many minutes.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Agreed. I don't know if Italy are trying and failing to find these people or what.

I feel like the Italian Rugby Union will hear out managers of Italian-qualified players, but mustn't be chasing them. Someone like Biagi is just not that impressive, compared to the myriad of Italian-descended Argentines who are capped at lock but not getting many minutes.

They might be well served by putting a general call for players of Italian descendent to trial in the individual nations. Send a team to each of the nations you suggest and trail players. Successful ones get brought to Italy to shown off too the clubs. You never know.

 

[amirite]

They might be well served by putting a general call for players of Italian descendent to trial in the individual nations. Send a team to each of the nations you suggest and trail players. Successful ones get brought to Italy to shown off too the clubs. You never know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Exiles#The_Professional_Era

I mean I think your model is exxy, I think a simpler version is:

1. Put a general call out and ask them to send tape. This can take the form of emailing player managers in areas with plenty of Italians (including league managers, plenty of decent uncontracted players in the Italian team at the Rugby League WC).
2. Review tapes, and if a player is good, suss him in person and watch games.
3. If they impress, sign them to a Excellenza team. Offer dispensations for taking on these Italian Rugby Union allotted players.
4. If they impress, sign them to a Pro 12 team and cap them for Italy.

I have no doubt that if this was done systematically they'd find 5 test standard players (Italian test standard) by WC time.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Exiles#The_Professional_Era

I mean I think your model is exxy, I think a simpler version is:

1. Put a general call out and ask them to send tape. This can take the form of emailing player managers in areas with plenty of Italians (including league managers, plenty of decent uncontracted players in the Italian team at the Rugby League WC).
2. Review tapes, and if a player is good, suss him in person and watch games.
3. If they impress, sign them to a Excellenza team. Offer dispensations for taking on these Italian Rugby Union allotted players.
4. If they impress, sign them to a Pro 12 team and cap them for Italy.

I have no doubt that if this was done systematically they'd find 5 test standard players (Italian test standard) by WC time.

I still think you need to get them all together in each country as a means of sussing out their exact quality. Different competitions of differing quality could be deceptive. Seeing them execute in person would give them a better gauge on their abilities.

If you got 100 guys in each nation and only took 4 from each year they'd still likely co,e out on top in a relatively short time..

 

[amirite]

I still think you need to get them all together in each country as a means of sussing out their exact quality. Different competitions of differing quality could be deceptive. Seeing them execute in person would give them a better gauge on their abilities.

If you got 100 guys in each nation and only took 4 from each year they'd still likely co,e out on top in a relatively short time..

They could certainly run an Australasian academy, an Argentinian academy, and a Euro academy.

Aiming to recruit those players that talent ID misses.

 

[Highlander35]

It's surprising that they've not been better at finding blokes with ancestry.

Since 2011, Maitland, Berghan, B Toolis, Watson, Hardie, Blake, Cowan, Dell, Jones and Hart have all been been SH developed players and given full Scottish caps after being eligible through ancestry/Birth. McClennan for the Sevens too, and if we're lucky, Rennie will bring Finlay Christie with him to Scotstoun. Plus A Toolis was with Edinburgh for a while and McKibbon was talked to before they realised the bench appearance ruled him out.

I get that SA/Australia/NZ will have a lot more historical British Immigration than Italian, but with less than 1/10th of the population, there should really be a better pool, both local and foreign.

Edit: Ollie Atkins got a Scotland A Cap too, and Hilterbrand was eligible for us too before he turned out for the States.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

It's surprising that they've not been better at finding blokes with ancestry.

Since 2011, Maitland, Berghan, B Toolis, Watson, Hardie, Blake, Cowan, Dell, Jones and Hart have all been been SH developed players and given full Scottish caps after being eligible through ancestry/Birth. McClennan for the Sevens too, and if we're lucky, Rennie will bring Finlay Christie with him to Scotstoun. Plus A Toolis was with Edinburgh for a while and McKibbon was talked to before they realised the bench appearance ruled him out.

I get that SA/Australia/NZ will have a lot more historical British Immigration than Italian, but with less than 1/10th of the population, there should really be a better pool, both local and foreign.

Edit: Ollie Atkins got a Scotland A Cap too, and Hilterbrand was eligible for us too before he turned out for the States.

Is it that hard to believe that they have struggled on this front? They've managed not to improve much at all despite the advantage of being exposed to elite competition for what 15+ years.

 

[Highlander35]

I struggle to imagine that any Union could be more incompetent than the SRU before roughly 2012.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I struggle to imagine that any Union could be more incompetent than the SRU before roughly 2012.

Lol.

 

[stoff]

Agreed. I don't know if Italy are trying and failing to find these people or what.

I feel like the Italian Rugby Union will hear out managers of Italian-qualified players, but mustn't be chasing them. Someone like Biagi is just not that impressive, compared to the myriad of Italian-descended Argentines who are capped at lock but not getting many minutes.

Maybe they just want to use actual Italians. Similar to how France is now talking about only picking French players.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Maybe they just want to use actual Italians. Similar to how France is now talking about only picking French players.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Except that they have a history of importing talent but on a more piecemeal and chaotic in nature.

 

[amirite]

Maybe they just want to use actual Italians. Similar to how France is now talking about only picking French players.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nationality isn't binary, mate.

I think you'd struggle telling all those Aussies with yearly Tomato days and vowels at the end of their name that they aren't 'actual Italians'. Same goes for the Italian speaking Parisse and Castrogiovanni, who are part of the 40ish% of Argentines born to Italian families.

The Scottish-born but Italian-capped Allan has the first name Tomasso for god's sake. It's not exactly the same as those South African's running around for Scotland or the likely 2018 Irish rep named Bundee Aki.

I'll also add that despite France's big statement they currently have a back 3 of players who moved to France specifically to play professional rugby in their adult years. But once again, those blokes speak French, and are raising families in France, so who am I to tell them they're not French. I just all think it's very silly.

 

[amirite]

I struggle to imagine that any Union could be more incompetent than the SRU before roughly 2012.

The SRU have been excellent for the last few years though. Producing great locals, finding solid ancestry qualified players, and sneakily getting good residency players (though so far CJ Stander has been the best pick-up of that ilk).