Rugby Coaching

[terry j]

hi guys, first post. Have only just found the forum a few days ago.

Boy, can I say I am surprised at how quickly it moves?! Just seems strange to a new guy that there is so much activity.

Australians and sport I spose.

One thing has struck me...I know I will not be able to contribute much haha....as I feel like a fish out of water given the analysis you guys have of the game. Heck, I'm still learning the bloody rules!

That did however make me ponder...is it this skill (analysis) that sets the good/great coaches apart from the rest? Or, is it man management, or the ability to inspire an individual/team to do their best? (obviously give your thoughts, these are just random musings)

I've often wondered why a coach in any sport is usually the scapegoat for poor performances, after all he personally does not go out onto the pitch does he.

Anyway, hello and all that jazz, looking forward to more lurking! with occasional (very) forays into posting.

Oh, and go the wallabies in the RWC!

 

[What2040]

Really simplistic answer: WINNING

 

[Sully]

Terry I am one of the Shyest guys going around. Get into it no one knows who you are. The site is for fans by fans so and every one here is learning.

I think good coaches are organised, can inspire players to give there best and they love the game. What ever game that is.

Sully

 

[Ash]

I reckon that no matter the setup, you want a coach who not only can manage his players on a personal level (eg not Eddie Jones), but can also command the respect of his players (eg Wayne Bennett). The second ability would be being able to pick game plans which fit his cattle and are suitable for the opposition, and then coach to that game plan. I reckon these requirements are critical all the way from test down to subbies.

Fostering individual skills (ball, ruck, etc) and team moves (backs, forwards, set pieces), defence, etc at top level can all be left (at least somewhat) to assistant coaches or specialist coaches, as can discovering talent.

 

[wamberal]

Having worked in management for some years, I would say that the first requirement is a vision - a strategic view of what it will take for the team (or department, or company) to be successful. In rugby, that implies keeping up with the development of the game as it is played by the major countries (and, of course, refereed by the leading referees), and working out ways to get ahead of the curve.



Then, of course, the next step is to lead your playing group, through and with your assistants, to position themselves to achieve winning results, bearing in mind their own strengths and weaknesses, and of course the strengths and weaknesses of their opponents on Saturday (not to mention the idiosyncracities of the match officials) - and all the Saturdays for the whole season.

Finally, and especially important in a crowded sporting landscape like Australia, develop good, constructive relationships with all the media.

 

[terry j]

(hi sully, thanks for the words of encouragement! Trust me, I don't mind playing a fool, but I would BE a fool if I tried to mix it with you guys haha)

See what I mean about a fast moving forum? great stuff.

So, a good 'game head' is needed, but a LOT of it is to do with the total picture? When we ran around as kiddies in whatever game it was we ran around in, the coach was the guy who gave up his thursday night yeah?

Not so in the professional game eh? He finds and delegates a forwards coach, a backs coach, co-ordinates the lot (?), does he also influence the media profile etc etc?

Does he also play a role in finding new talent, balance the budget yada yada?? Gee, getting quite involved.

So, another thing I am curious about, how much is a modern coach worth? He'd have to get a fair bit no? his head is always the first to go...and how could he operate if the player was getting 10X as much a year (times fifteen) than he did?

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

Qualifications, experience, they are in the loop of the game and have good contacts. They are dedicated to learning more about the game and moving their way up the coaching ranks. I'm sure for a beginner, reading books on rugby coaching is the best start.

Alternatively, you can be a past-pro-player and get to the top pretty quickly.

Rugby coaches are simply up-to-date with the current game. And are great at analysis. I guess the only way to grasp the whole situation is to hang around your local club a lot, and get a grasp of the difference between between lower grade and senior grade coaches. Then from senior, to representative or pro coaches.

 

[barbarian]

So, a good 'game head' is needed, but a LOT of it is to do with the total picture? When we ran around as kiddies in whatever game it was we ran around in, the coach was the guy who gave up his thursday night yeah?

Not so in the professional game eh? He finds and delegates a forwards coach, a backs coach, co-ordinates the lot (?), does he also influence the media profile etc etc?

Does he also play a role in finding new talent, balance the budget yada yada?? Gee, getting quite involved.

So, another thing I am curious about, how much is a modern coach worth? He'd have to get a fair bit no? his head is always the first to go...and how could he operate if the player was getting 10X as much a year (times fifteen) than he did?

Some coaches are very involved in the club on and off the field, others just focus on the rugby. Ewen McKenzie is a prime example of a coach who involves himself in all aspects of the rugby club, from the financials to the marketing to media strategy etc. Chris Hickey on the other hand pretty much sticks to the footy side of things. Both have achieved good results over the years, so there is no right answer. You would lean to Link's approach, but it differs in every case.

As for pay, top coaches are paid similarly to the players. Much like players there is a big market for coaches overseas and Aussie franchises try and hold on to the best coaching talent as they would playing talent. So this means tey are paid a handsome sum.

 

[yourmatesam]

From what i've seen over the years i think gaining accreditation (particularly level II coaching certificate) is essential. I'm obviously talking about club level coaches, but WAY too many blokes have a crack at coaching and have no real knowledge of how all the different elements of the game come together.

I'm a level II coach and it's a REAL eye opener when you attend the level I course and they start on session planning and map some goals for the season. When you work back from round one to start of pre-season, fuck me there is a lot of stuff to get through week in week out (before you even get into the season). Scrum, Lineout, Backline, Backrow, Selections, Fitness, Catch Pass, Individual Skills, Position Specific Skills, Running Lines, Unit Skills, Team Skills, Team Calls, Team Manual, Truth Sessions, Coach Selections... I'll think of more, but you get the picture.

The biggest mistake i see is the good ex-player trying to transfer his playing knowledge into his coaching knowledge and they are really so vastly different it's not funny. Good players can help out in specific areas, but until they get a good broad knowledge of the laws and the different aspects of the game, it's really hard to tie all the different parts together.

 

[terry j]

I guess the only way to grasp the whole situation is to hang around your local club a lot, and get a grasp of the difference between between lower grade and senior grade coaches. Then from senior, to representative or pro coaches.

Hah, that's an interesting one.

For some time now I have had the 'guilty feeling' that I should be out each sat afternoon watching the local club play..at least when at home. (usually holed up watching whatever Super Rugby game is on)

So I search the web for the local team website..out here at bathurst, the bathurst bulldogs..reckon I can find ANY details on fixtures and dates??? Maybe it is there, but if I need to put my detective hat on just to find out where they are playing this weekend...

Talk about shooting yourself on the foot.

As for pay, top coaches are paid similarly to the players. Much like players there is a big market for coaches overseas and Aussie franchises try and hold on to the best coaching talent as they would playing talent. So this means tey are paid a handsome sum.

I'll tell you what originally made me wonder about the pay. I remember reading some article about a Premier League manager (soccer in england of course) who was the least paid manager in the league. The thrust of the story was how low he was paid yet how well the team was doing.

Anyway, the figure was forty thousand pounds, which in australian dollars at the time was three times that much, ie 120 thousand. Silly me, I thought 'ok, not a huge amount, but not chicken feed either. !20 grand per year is hardly a slap in the face with a wet fish'

Yep, you guessed it, it was forty thousand pounds per week. And he was the LOWEST paid manager?? What the heck does Alex Ferguson get each week???

Ok, different scales comparing the premier league and super rugby say, but that led to these type of thoughts.

And, I now wonder what does a referee get in either Super Rugby or internationals? You'd have to pay them well too would you not? Thinking about it, say as a youngster you love the game but maybe not top tier material player wise, then hey, why not make a career out of being an official? We want the best there too you know...hardly any point in having the superstar players hampered by mediocre reffing.

So, are those figures made known or are they secret in some sense. Who would begrudge Refs getting good return for their input? And, that might also introduce competition for the top spots...what would a Ref get for the final at the RWC for example?

I'm a level II coach and it's a REAL eye opener when you attend the level I course and they start on session planning and map some goals for the season. When you work back from round one to start of pre-season, fuck me there is a lot of stuff to get through week in week out (before you even get into the season). Scrum, Lineout, Backline, Backrow, Selections, Fitness, Catch Pass, Individual Skills, Position Specific Skills, Running Lines, Unit Skills, Team Skills, Team Calls, Team Manual, Truth Sessions, Coach Selections... I'll think of more, but you get the picture.

Wow, thanks for a behind the scenes look...I guess the professional age affects everything, even if we only look at the surface. Hey, I spose that means the 'best' strapper would command the highest pay and be sought after??

 

[barbarian]

And, I now wonder what does a referee get in either Super Rugby or internationals? You'd have to pay them well too would you not? Thinking about it, say as a youngster you love the game but maybe not top tier material player wise, then hey, why not make a career out of being an official? We want the best there too you know...hardly any point in having the superstar players hampered by mediocre reffing.

So, are those figures made known or are they secret in some sense. Who would begrudge Refs getting good return for their input? And, that might also introduce competition for the top spots...what would a Ref get for the final at the RWC for example?

Refs get paid pretty well, but I don't think it is on par with coaches or players. Happy to be corrected if I am wrong though. There is plenty of competition for the top spots at the moment, and the refs are rapidly becoming more professional.

As for encouraging youngsters, it is a good idea already being pursued by the ARU. There have a program for young refs which is pretty good. It is tough to be a ref (speaking from experience) as it is a pretty lonely job. In the end I chose to play low level subbies over reffing at a (reasonably) high level because of the friendship and comraderie at my local club. It is a decision I have never regretted.

 

[Henry]

Alternatively, you can be a past-pro-player and get to the top pretty quickly.

Stephen Larkham much. Regardless. I believe a much underestimated aspect of coaching (any sport) is the mental aspect. Unless you have your athletes firing on song mentally, week in week out, no matter HOW physically big, skilled, etc, it is going to be an uphill battle. What is going on upstairs is more than half the battle. Often a switched on team will decimate a stronger opponent. In any Sport.

 

[What2040]

all the posts are right about the vision, man management, game plans and so on, but unless the team wins and wins very regularly the Coach, rightfully or wrongly is in the firing line. Often the coach is the scapgoat

 

[terry j]

is it hard to find out how much a ref gets? We all see contract for players etc, but I don't recall any figures for the officials. What about RL as a counter example, or AFL, are those sorts of figures known?

 

[yourmatesam]

Hah, that's an interesting one.

For some time now I have had the 'guilty feeling' that I should be out each sat afternoon watching the local club play..at least when at home. (usually holed up watching whatever Super Rugby game is on)

So I search the web for the local team website..out here at bathurst, the bathurst bulldogs..reckon I can find ANY details on fixtures and dates??? Maybe it is there, but if I need to put my detective hat on just to find out where they are playing this weekend...

Talk about shooting yourself on the foot.

If the Central West competition is anything like the Southern Inland competition, which i'm sure it is. There should be a write up in the Friday paper and probably something on ABC local radio on the Friday and possibly the Saturday.

I think most clubs, particularly country clubs do not keep their websites up to date.

 

[Jets]

is it hard to find out how much a ref gets? We all see contract for players etc, but I don't recall any figures for the officials. What about RL as a counter example, or AFL, are those sorts of figures known?

A few years ago an international ref was getting around $80K a year. I am not sure where it's at now though.

 

[ACT Crusader]

A few years ago an international ref was getting around $80K a year. I am not sure where it's at now though.

Some refs do have a stock of Rolex vouchers that are worth a quid or two

In terms of coaching, the best coaches I've had are good communicators (ie good speakers and listeners), don't patronise you by always giving the impression they know the answers all the time. Also they have a number of very simple plays that are flexible in their formation and execution.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Having lurked around Gaggerland for a while, I have come to the conclusion that many fellow Gaggerland Citizens are not only passionate followers of School, Club, Provincial, Representative or National Rugby teams, or any combination of two or more of these, many of us are also balls deep in other aspects of Heaven’s Game, (Refereeing, Touch Judging, Coaching, Managing, Training, Doctoring, Administering or Volunteering).

Cue Basil Fawlty - "Next contestant, Mrs. Sybil Fawlty from Torquay. Specialist subject - the bleeding obvious." :

There are existing Rugby Discussion threads covering most of these items.

I think it may be timely to start a Rugby Coaching Thread.

The main items of discussion I think we can wang on about in this thread are:

Coaches Performances. A safety valve to comment on what we see as the good, bad and ugly from Coaches.

Coaching Strategies. What tactics are being used by coaches and why? What strategies are working, and which strategies are not working; and why? What are the next big trends in coaching, and what is past its time? What are the Referees focussing on at the various levels, and what can Coaches do to deal effectively with these issues?

Coaching Resources. The vast majority of Coaches in rugbyland are enthusiastic but time poor volunteers. Where can we find the best sources of resources, Free on-line resources, reviews of “pay-per-view” coaching material, reviews of National/State Union provided development resources. Is there too much “stuff” available to modern coaches and are we getting overwhelmed by choice? Have we overcomplicated things, with all the resources being more or less the same, with a subtle twists to differentiate?

Coaching Courses. What courses are running, where and how much? Club, District, State or National Courses. What about privately run courses – either on a “not for profit” basis, or from fully professional coaching business operators.


Ultimately an ability to wang on about coaching. Let’s see where we can take this thread.

Moderators:
This may even be a candidate for a sub-forum?

I have done a bit of a search for similar previous threads, and the best I could come up with is "What makes a good rugby coach" http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/forum/threads/8686-What-makes-a-good-rugby-coach?
Perhaps you could merge this previous thread in as a starter?

DONE - NOT A MATTER FOR A SUB-FORUM UNLESS THIS THREAD HAS SERIOUS LEGS, I WOULD SAY.

 

[Jnor]

inb4 Robbie Deans

 

[Ruggo]

I have coached juniors and a big no no in my view for coaches is tearing strips off of your players in front of their team mates.

Love your work Mr Jarse, great thread.