Rugby Championship Backrow

[barbarian]

Thought I would start a discussion on this as there are a few interesting selection decisions to make.

Obviously you would think our long-term backrow would be something like Mowen/Pocock/Higgers. But as two of those players are injured (along with Palu as well) it means there are spots up for grabs this winter.

The only safe spot would be Mowen, who you would presume will be playing 8.

I wrote a piece on the front page this morning looking at the stats of the leading blindside candidates. There are no clear standouts, and it will be close between Kimlin, Dennis, McMeniman, Schatz and McCalman.

All have claims to the jersey, and each offer a different style of play that needs to be considered.

As for openside, it is a tight battle between Gill and Hooper. It will be interesting to see who Link rolls with, as Hooper was solid without being brilliant against the Lions, and you have to think he has an affinity to Gill.

So who would you pick?
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[Braveheart81]

In an ideal world where everyone was healthy I'd currently pick Higgers at 6, Pocock at 7 and Palu at 8. Mowen would be on the bench.

For the Rugby Championship, I'd pick Mowen at 8, Gill at 7, and McMeniman at 6. I'd give Pyle a crack at lock next to Horwill. Either Kimlin or Fardy on the bench along with Hooper.

The Rugby Championship is going to present a massive challenge for Mowen at Number 8. Plenty of people have been cricitcal of Palu in the past but he has really been the only Wallabies Number 8 to stand up in recent years. Higginbotham struggled to have nearly the same impact at 8 as he has at 6 and McCalman and Brown have worked hard but not had much impact when they've had the gig.

If Mowen is up to the task at 8 then we could see Higgers, Pocock and Mowen next year. If not, Mowen and Higgers could continue to fight over the 6 jersey with Palu playing 8 whenever healthy.

Number 8 appears to be our hardest position to fill in the forward pack though.

 

[No4918]

I see MMM more as a lock now.

Kimlin probably with the advantage and this appears to be Links thinking as well given his comments at the announcement. McCalman as a smokie but not sure he will be given a starting spot. Dennis is not up to internationals and Schatz is a year or two away.

Next year Higgers and Mowen should get the nod. Not concerned about the number on there back.

 

[Lindommer]

Palu's best days are now behind him, which is a shame as I always like a big bruiser at number 8. Cliffy'd do well to keep himself fit for his twilight years at the Tahs, and expect not to play every match.

 

[Slim 293]

4. MMM
5. Horwill
6. Kimlin/Fardy
7. Gill
8. Mowen

 

[barbarian]

I'm not sold on MMM as much as others are. His missed tackle stats are shocking, and I just don't think he has had enough game time this season.

I would like to see:

4. Fardy
5. Horwill
6. McCalman
7. Gill
8. Mowen

with Kimlin on the bench.
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[Pete King]

To beat the all blacks we have to have a heap of old school mungrel mixed with good technique around the breakdown. I think guys like Fardy and Kimilin have really benefited under the guidance of Laurie F at the Brumbies.

Id go into the next test with

4 Fardy
5 Horwill
6 Kimlin
7Gill
8 Mowen

MMM on the bench

Long term added to this you would have Higgers, Pyle and Pocock featuring

 

[Richo]

Gill has to start. Having an on-ball 7 is essential, especially if Australia is going to have the quick ball needed to play attacking rugby. Hooper should be on the bench, though, as his ability to break open a game is equal to any of our backs.

I think we'll see:

4. Simmons
5. Horwill
6. McCalman
7. Gill
8. Mowen

I'm torn between Kimlin, MMM and McCalman, but the first is heading o/s and the second is not looking fit. That leaves McCalman as the default option.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

4.MMM/Fardy
5.Horwill
6.Kimlin
7.Gill
8.Mowen
17.Hooper
18.MMM/Fardy
　
I think in recent years we have a lacked a lot of grunt compared to the All blacks engines and have seemed to really lost the arm wrestle up front. I think the back 5 mentioned above has the potential to match the all blacks as all the players named starting are well respected for their grunt work and ability to win the the contact. I understand gill may not be fully in this category but I feel his tackle count and ability to pilfer is above Hooper, but in saying this Hooper has a certain X-Factor that is rare in a openside. His pace and running ability I think make him a better candidate then Gill for the final 20 minute cameo when everything is opening up a bit around the ruck. So for tactical reasons i leave him on the bench with gill to start.

 

[Ignoto]

6. McCalman
8. Mowen

If you're trying to reach balance with the backrow you can't have McCalman and Mowen, they're both workhorses which effects their "impactness". More importantly, I haven't seen anything in Benny Macs time in yellow that suggests he's more than a passenger in the team. Compared to the likes of Messam, Kaino, Collins etc we're significantly hindered by him being included in the 23.

Having the likes of Gill, Mowen, Horwill, Pyle in the 8, you're going to need someone who gets consistently over that advantage line, something McCallum doesn't. At this stage, I would say MMM is the closest we have to a Palu and Higgers to fill that spot. He might not be as good overall to them, but trying to balance the 8, he's the top candidate. Then I'd have to say Kimlin.

 

[barbarian]

If you're trying to reach balance with the backrow you can't have McCalman and Mowen, they're both workhorses which effects their "impactness". More importantly, I haven't seen anything in Benny Macs time in yellow that suggests he's more than a passenger in the team. Compared to the likes of Messam, Kaino, Collins etc we're significantly hindered by him being included in the 23.

This is a view that really annoys me sometimes. "He has never shone, therefore he never will". The argument gets trotted out in relation to a lot of players (Rob Horne is another that springs to mind). It's as if they can never improve their game.

McCalman has had a very good year of Super rugby in a losing side. He is one of the form blindsides, and looked good in his cameo off the bench against the Lions. So we should overlook him because he wasn't up to it back in 2011? Should we do the same for Kimlin then?
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[Braveheart81]

I personally wouldn't pick McCalman but I think if you did, Hooper should start instead of Gill.

Gill and McCalman don't provide enough ball running to play together in an effective backrow. I also wouldn't pick Mowen to be the only strong ball runner. He is plenty good enough if there is some more ball running in the backrow.

If you were going to play Gill and McCalman together I think you'd need an all out ball runner at number 8 such as Fotu Auelua to provide balance. I wouldn't go with this sort of option myself though.

I actually thought the balance between Palu and Mowen at 6 and 8 was pretty good in the Lions series. They complement each other quite well.

 

[Slim 293]

Despite playing most games at lock this year I'd love to see how Fardy's stats compare to the other blindsides...........

He's got a massive workrate, generally one of the Brumbies' top tacklers in each match, and works hard at the breakdown (ranks above the other 6 options in pilfers with 4)..........

He's also a bloody nuisance to opposition mauls.........

 

[Pfitzy]

Thanks for warming up the mic for me slim - you're a smart bloke.

The reason Fardy is going to be 6 is simply that he is a right fluffybunny. A bearded, skinnier version of Owen Finnegan if you will.

Personally think we have enough locks though Fardy would do good work there if required. I want our second row to be big machines to help with the smashing of opposition scrums.

So Fardy 6, Mowen 8 (c), and Gill 7.

Hooper on the bench.

And fuck MMM - Link can't be serious about picking fully fit players when he's made of cheap glass


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[Braveheart81]

Of our 6 and 8 options in recent years, who could you say has really stood up besides Mowen against the Lions?

Much of the discussion seems to follow similar lines to which players are popular and which players aren't but overall I'd say this is an area where the Wallabies have struggled.

Higginbotham has played 23 tests now but I think has really only produced a couple of really good ones. Certainly none when he has to play 8.

Dennis is almost universally unpopular but I don't think he really did any worse than Higginbotham last year. On the EOYT, I think Dennis was playing really well. Dennis is likely to remain on the fringes of the Wallaby squad in the next couple of years and will probably only play tests when there are injuries in front of him.

I consider McCalman in a similar spot right now. He is reasonably experienced with 22 tests over the same sort of timeframe as Higginbotham and has also struggled to be a real standout at test level. He is far from being alone here.

So Mowen has played three tests and did fairly well in all of them. He is definitely a long term option but he has to show that he can be consistently good at test level to really confirm that he is ahead of the other contenders. Whether he can have that same impact at 8 is still a big question and one that is likely to be answered in the next few tests with Palu out injured.

We are definitely in a position where we can start to have a more dynamic back row if Mowen can show that he has what it takes to be a test number 8 against the best sides. If he can't, we are likely to remain in the same spot we've been for a couple of years where Palu is the best choice at 8 when he's healthy because all the other options that work at 6 struggle to provide the physicality when playing 8.

 

[James O'Connor]

Fotu has to be the best impact player coming off any bench for an Aus side this year. If we can carry his ability to only play in 8 or 6 on the bench then he could come on and be a real game changer late in the second half.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

This is a view that really annoys me sometimes. "He has never shone, therefore he never will". The argument gets trotted out in relation to a lot of players (Rob Horne is another that springs to mind). It's as if they can never improve their game.

McCalman has had a very good year of Super rugby in a losing side. He is one of the form blindsides, and looked good in his cameo off the bench against the Lions. So we should overlook him because he wasn't up to it back in 2011? Should we do the same for Kimlin then?
.

I honestly thought that there was there no discernible difference between Benny Mac and Cottrell when the force swapped them around half way through the year. I thought Cottrell was slightly more impressive in some areas.


And by no means was he the best backrower at the force this year. I thought Alcock and Brown had much bigger impacts.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

Might i add its not that i dont think McCalman isn't up to it, I think he serves a purpose as being a solid cog in the machine but by no means would I be upset if he was dropped or wasnt even called up

 

[RoffsChoice]

Onfield forwards: Robinson, Moore, Alexander, Simmons, Horwill, Kimlin, Gill, Mowen.
Bench: Fainga'a, Slipper, Kepu, McCalman, Hooper.

ANSWER GRAVY:
So running for BSF is McCalman, Mowen, Dennis, MMM, Kimlin, Fardy, Schatz, Gill.
OSF is Hooper and Gill.
8 is McCalman, Mowen, Schatz.

We want 4 lineout jumpers, so Gill at 6 is ruled out. Now the tight five should look something like
Robinson, Moore, Alexander, Simmons, Horwill
and the bench
Fainga'a, Slipper, Kepu, xxx, yyy
with xxx and yyy depending on the back three.

Gill is the standout 7, Hooper's faults were shown against the Lions. That said, he is a great runner and always puts in 100%.
Mowen needs to be in there. He is the form loose forward and his lineout combination with Moore is just bonus points.
Now, McCalman has international experience at 8 and has been pretty good this season, but Mowen has been in charge of the Brumbies scrum all year and they have been dominant, so I'm putting Mowen at 8.

Now it's all about balance. We have two workhorse backrowers, so let's get a good runner and loose player. For mine that has to be Kimlin, he tops the runs count for the Brumbies this year and is devastating in the loose.

So the forwards so far is
Robinson, Moore, Alexander, Simmons, Horwill, Kimlin, Gill, Mowen
Fainga'a, Slipper, Kepu, xxx, yyy

Filling those bench spots could be complex, so look at the on field team. Front row injuries are covered. Lock injuries can be covered by Kimlin. Backrow has no cover.

We want an impact bench against the kiwis, so let's have two backrowers on the bench. Hooper is an auto-pick because his running will be great in the last 10-20.
The other bench spot should go to McCalman - a solid super season and the ability to cover both 6 and 8 make him an easy choice.

 

[Pfitzy]

Alexander, Simmons, Kimlin
Bench: Fainga'a

Try again.

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