Ref's; what makes 'em good, what should they be trying to do.

[DPK]

I think pretty much everyone on this forum has basically the same views on this subject, but a thread to bring together our opinions couldn't hurt.

I think the best referees have these qualities:

• Accurate decisions in accordance with the laws of the game.
• Decisions that are consistent for both sides.
• Decisions aimed at facilitating the flow of the game, rather than scrutinising every aspect of play.
• Good communication skills.
• Strong will and composure under pressure.

To name a couple of referees that I think perform their jobs well; Craig Joubert's performances refereeing the Reds games earlier in the year and the Melbourne Bledisloe were very good IMO and contained all of the above qualities; I also think Wayne Barnes is a good referee, probably the pick of the NH refs at the moment IMO.

Are there more qualities that are considered a prerequisite of the modern referee?

What other referees could be considered top class?

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

Can open.. worms everywhere!! Here is what I like to see

Consistent decisons
Ability to make the big call where reqd
Empathy for the match
Generous & consistent use of advantage
Clear communication to the captain

Empathy for the match is obviously quite broad, but if referee's blew for every single infringement, you'd never have more than one phase of play.

Refs I like - All the Safa's, the 2010 version of Dickinson, Barnes, 2008 version of Walsh, Munro, White (if he's still about).

I don't mind Lawrence either, but I don't like it when he refs as most discussion post one of his matches is usually about how shit he was & it gets boring!

 

[Aussie D]

Referee to the laws of the game (straight scrum feeds, proper procedure at the breakdown, ping for offsides) and use the yellow cards to ensure no repeat offenders.

 

[cyclopath]

Yellow cards to be used as they were intended. They don't actually require 5 prior levels of warning and pre-empting.
Get the Ass Refs to actually police offside line - the ref is too busy looking at the breakdown.
I would suggest the TMO be used when an Ass Ref call is made on a foul play - actually check if arms were used, who punched who etc...They get this wrong too much and may be miles from the actual infringement. Standard question - "Is there a reason why the YC should not be given" - does not negate what the AR saw, but may add what he didn't.
And what the OP and MR said.

 

[Ruggo]

Clear oporation as a unit. Quite often the refs and touchies are not on the same page and it disrupts the flow of the game. More accountability also. If a ref fucks up as happens to us mere moratlas from time to time, come clean, appologise and admit you got it wrong. Respectful interaction with the players. You will be suprised how quickly this will work both ways.

 

[Linus]

The ability to think and adjudicate, the best refs have a great judgement of advantage, and calling the first offense, where there are multiple infringements. And recognising the situation, deliberate slowing of the game, repeated offside, professional fouls, etc. and then meter out suitable sanction. The tip tackles are crap and should be dealt with after the game. I like cyclo think that a YC is suitable at any time.

I actually think that you'll never get consistancy over several games (it should be strived for) the laws need to be overhauled but I except variations if they could get a clear line in each individual game.

 

[KiwiPower]

Linus why oh why would you need a ANOTHER rule OVERHAUL when the new rules are just fine as they are. Just because the Wobblies have lost 0-9 to ABs doesn't call for an OVER-BLOODY-HAUL (which is what I think motivates the "overhaul" discussion). The game has never been as exciting as it currently is with the tackler-release law. It's time for Wobblie fans to quit the crybabying and grow some balls. The rules apply to BOTH teams so learn how to play to them. The use of appropriate intelligence on the field will aid team performance. George Gregan, Nick Farr-Jones and John Eales were master communicators/manipulators of refs. Richie McCaw's views on refs is pretty simple: find out what the individual refs strengths, weaknesses preferences are and play within these boundaries. I'm sure he doesn't have a monopoly on this strategy . . . . Might I suggest that Aus fans lose the victim mentality.

 

[DPK]

Linus why oh why would you need a ANOTHER rule OVERHAUL when the new rules are just fine as they are. Just because the Wobblies have lost 0-9 to ABs doesn't call for an OVER-BLOODY-HAUL (which is what I think motivates the "overhaul" discussion). The game has never been as exciting as it currently is with the tackler-release law. It's time for Wobblie fans to quit the crybabying and grow some balls. The rules apply to BOTH teams so learn how to play to them. The use of appropriate intelligence on the field will aid team performance. George Gregan, Nick Farr-Jones and John Eales were master communicators/manipulators of refs. Richie McCaw's views on refs is pretty simple: find out what the individual refs strengths, weaknesses preferences are and play within these boundaries. I'm sure he doesn't have a monopoly on this strategy . . . . Might I suggest that Aus fans lose the victim mentality.

Take it somewhere else. This is a thread about the core essentials of a modern professional referee, not this years Tri Nations.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

KP, I don't think you'll find anybody on here thinks any of the last 9 bled matches were lost because of the refereeing. Think you've been just a tad over the top of your assesment on things.

I definately think this years rugby has been great to watch, right from the word go. I'm not convinced as others are that refereeing at the moment is terrible/shocking etc, but there has definately been enough inconsistency & discussion to warrant an evenly balanced thread about it.

 

[cyclopath]

Take it somewhere else. This is a thread about the core essentials of a modern professional referee, not this years Tri Nations.

Well he's basically posted the same diatribe in 2 threads, so I think the troll has only one tune.

 

[Rob42]

Clear oporation as a unit. Quite often the refs and touchies are not on the same page and it disrupts the flow of the game. More accountability also. If a ref fucks up as happens to us mere moratlas from time to time, come clean, appologise and admit you got it wrong. Respectful interaction with the players. You will be suprised how quickly this will work both ways.

Exactly. In the NFL, for example, refereeing "crews" work together for a whole season or more. Much better understanding of what the main ref wants from his assistants, etc.

 

[DPK]

Definetely agree on that point (but everyone's raising valid points as well... ok, almost everyone). At the very least, the Referee's should meet in the week before the game and go over their goals and get to know each other.

 

[Lee Grant]

Looking at it from a big picture view - the vibe, if you like - I want referees to referee the laws as they are written.

What I don't want is for referees to change the game because they get these conventions they adhere to and after 10 years of it what they have done has changed the game, yet the law hasn't changed.

Putting the ball into the scrum crooked is a perfect example. If refs kept pinging people for it 20 years ago when the laws were corrupted (to speed the game up in their eyes) the put ins would be straight now. As the power hit in scrums evolved and credible tunnels became uncommon, referees closed their blind eye to the crooked feed and did rugby a great disservice.

They should have kept pinging and the law makers would have legislated against the power hit, the primary culprit - which I discussed on another thread. Instead crooked put ins are part of the game.

There are several conventions that referees follow instead of the laws - and to be honest some of them are better for the game than the law - but in the main, such conventions are harmful.


PS - not to the point but conventions can be created suddenly. The Free Kick ELV was ruined in the first 2 rounds of the 2008 S14 when referees didn't have the balls of amateur club refs in Sydney in2007, who carded players relentlessly for cynical play in the free kick regime. This important ingredient to the success of the ELV was ignored and referees copied what the more experienced referees did and the ELV died.

The refs even introduced another layer of warnings: If this happens again I will have to go to penalties. Give me a break.

It was madness, like something right out of Kafka. But I digress.

 

[Top Bloke]

Definetely agree on that point (but everyone's raising valid points as well... ok, almost everyone). At the very least, the Referee's should meet in the week before the game and go over their goals and get to know each other.

I'm sure they do that already. The "Team of 3" approach is the way I understand they approach games these days.
Invariably the one who was a Asst Ref one week is then the man in the middle next and vice versa.
eg Allan Rolland this week has the whistle and Owens is one of the ARs

 

[Thomond78]

I'm with Lee Grant. My father is a ref and assessor of some thirty five years standing, and he has always said the keys are to police the bind and feed viciously, keep everyone on their feet and police the hindmost foot. If you crack down viciously on those in the first ten to fifteen, when the players are pushing to see what they can get away with, then they'll stop pushing and the game will flow.

One of the worst things that happened refereeing generally was the ranting about "pedantic" NH refs. What that actually meant was that the refs were refereeing according to the Laws. The Laws are quite dogmatic; no exceptions, in most cases, and in almost all cases they require that a ref must penalise, whether it be FK or Penalty. But referees started ignoring the laws because, in the teeth of the combination of Brumbieball and commentators whining when they started penalising Brumbieball and the pile-ups that it resulted in resulting in a stream of penalties because the players wouldn't stop, and with the pressure to turn that sow's ear into a silk purse, they folded and started engineering pretty rugby by doing violence to the laws. It was a bad move, because it meant that the referee became the subjective interpreter of the Laws, instead of the one applying them objectively. If you want consistency, then you have to have them all applying the same Laws, in the same manner; which means you need them applying the Laws objectively, all the time.

Sure, play advantage, and short advantage at that (for a knock-on, since you only get a scrum, I've long held that after two passes, your advantage is over, and that there's no such thing as penalty advantage in your 22). But play the Laws. If people don't like them, fine; let them bring suggestions up and try them (the disaster of the ELVs wasn't so much that there were trials of new Laws, but that it was a take-it-or-leave-it package, with the daft ideas being rammed through harder than the sensible ones in a shockingly badly run piecemeal experiment). But until then, the Laws are as they are; and the ref should apply them. Because if not, then you get the sort of mess you get under Paddy O'Brien's stewardship of the reffing interpretations being all over the gaff from match to match.

 

[Hawko]

Can open.. worms everywhere!! Here is what I like to see

Consistent decisons
Ability to make the big call where reqd
Empathy for the match
Generous & consistent use of advantage
Clear communication to the captain

Empathy for the match is obviously quite broad, but if referee's blew for every single infringement, you'd never have more than one phase of play.

Refs I like - All the Safa's, the 2010 version of Dickinson, Barnes, 2008 version of Walsh, Munro, White (if he's still about).

I don't mind Lawrence either, but I don't like it when he refs as most discussion post one of his matches is usually about how shit he was & it gets boring!

I assume you don't mean Bryce Lawrence, his performances this year were awful. I thought Mark Lawrence has been OK but not the standout. I do like Vinnie Munro but he seems to be out of favour except for assistant ref jobs.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

yeah, I mean Bryce Lawrence.... Mark Lawrence comes under the safa's mentioned.

I enjoyed the matches he played & I think he had a part in that.

T78 - yep, I'm one of those who don't like the "pedantic NH refs". Your probably right that if ref's blow for eveyrthing, then the players will change by requirement, I just love and open flowing game.

 

[Sandpit Fan]

I assume you don't mean Bryce Lawrence, his performances this year were awful. I thought Mark Lawrence has been OK but not the standout. I do like Vinnie Munro but he seems to be out of favour except for assistant ref jobs.

With you on Vinnie Munro. Can't remember which S14 match he had the whistle for, but was impressed by the way he ran the game. Laid the law down early and then things went smoothly. I can't understand why he doesn't get more time in the middle - is he new to the business or what's the story?

 

[Linus]

Can't help myself...but I didn't say I wanted an overhaul but to point out as the laws stand they allow for interpretation and hence you'll never have consistancy and you'll always have discussion about refs.

By the way, I have a personal problem with the ref it for the first 10-15 policy, that's the idea of consistency within the game. Not a token penalty early then nothing.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

With you on Vinnie Munro. Can't remember which S14 match he had the whistle for, but was impressed by the way he ran the game. Laid the law down early and then things went smoothly. I can't understand why he doesn't get more time in the middle - is he new to the business or what's the story?

Vinnie Munro is a bit of a referee journeyman. He got a chance when NZ lost Honiss, Bray, Walsh & Deaker in the same year. He is 42 or 43 already and not considered to be a potential IRB referee. He has good rapport with the players and is therefore a popular referee. He didn't referee as much at the end of S14 as he is not part of the top tier (4 Safas, Dickinson, B.Lawrence & Keith Brown).