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Refs Appointment Board

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The Mayor of Perth

Ted Fahey (11)
Not a sexy topic but Hawko made some good points in Tahs v Rebels thread. Seems very odd to me that Jaco Peyper gets the Stormers v Sharks game while Craig Joubert is doing Bulls v Chiefs on the same day. And the following week in RSA, Sharks play Brumbies and Stormers v Crusaders but Joubert is reffing Lions v Cheetahs. Last time I looked Joubert was very capable.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
I'm sorry, but I don't follow. Are all the matches "rated" and the crappest ones should get the ref deemed to be most crap by us / you / SANZAR / journos etc...? Why shouldn't the Lions v Cheetahs get Joubert?
 

Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
I'm sorry, but I don't follow. Are all the matches "rated" and the crappest ones should get the ref deemed to be most crap by us / you / SANZAR / journos etc...? Why shouldn't the Lions v Cheetahs get Joubert?

Cyclo,

It appears I set him off in my comments on the Tahs/Rebels game. Kaplan has been put in a no-win situation by the board in being appointed to that game. Whoever loses, Kaplan will be perceived to have favoured the other because of the history.

Having played football at a fairly low level, we all knew the score. Most times we got no ref and when we did he was not good. But the premier games always had refs and they were usually OK. The more important the game, the better the referee.

In Super rugby, where some games clearly have a bearing on the finals or where there have been specific problems in the past, its behoven on the board to appoint appropriate referees. Generally, matches between top ranking teams should have the best referees. This is clearly not the case in Super rugby where it appears that the referees are chosen for the round and then selected at random for the particular match. Some might say this random selection prevents favouritism, but it also results in Kaplan at the Tahs where there have been major previous problems and Joubert (top 3) with the no-impact Bulls-Chiefs and Lions-Cheetahs games. I'm with the Mayor - its a cock-up.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
Yeah, Hawko, I get all that re Kaplan and the Tahs and so on. Kaplan was one ref not mentioned in the OP. I still fail to see why the Lions / Cheetahs shouldn't get Joubert though. I mean, have SANZAR admitted some refs are worse? In any event, given the policy, or lack thereof regarding neutral refs, why would anything surprise anyone?
 

Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
Yeah, Hawko, I get all that re Kaplan and the Tahs and so on. Kaplan was one ref not mentioned in the OP. I still fail to see why the Lions / Cheetahs shouldn't get Joubert though. I mean, have SANZAR admitted some refs are worse? In any event, given the policy, or lack thereof regarding neutral refs, why would anything surprise anyone?

I agree entirely with the bolded part of your quote. I want neutral refs back as soon as it can be organised and the definition of neutral to incorporate previous game history.
 

Bullrush

Geoff Shaw (53)
I agree entirely with the bolded part of your quote. I want neutral refs back as soon as it can be organised and the definition of neutral to incorporate previous game history.

That would mean that Wayne Barnes never refs another All Black game....lol
 

Sandpit Fan

Nev Cottrell (35)
the definition of neutral to incorporate previous game history.

I don't think this part of it will ever get considered. It's such a subjective assessment, with too many variables, and would just lead to more bickering. For instance any referee who gets a few Lions S15 games a year is soon going to have a 15-0 record where they are involved.
 

Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
I don't think this part of it will ever get considered. It's such a subjective assessment, with too many variables, and would just lead to more bickering. For instance any referee who gets a few Lions S15 games a year is soon going to have a 15-0 record where they are involved.

The Lions prior history under all refs is part of the overall judgement call that the appointments board makes. If its too subjective then you can't rate referees. So how do you know who to take to the world cup?

What you are saying is that previous history, no matter how outlying or difficult to explain, must not be used to determine whether a ref is appointed to a particular match. The appointments board obviously agrees with you; but I think that abrogates the idea that referees can be examined and measured for performance or that performance can be taken into account when choosing referees. Why not just pull the names out of the hat. I'm sure that Peyper would be fine to ref the final if his name is drawn out.
 

Langthorne

Phil Hardcastle (33)
I don't think this part of it will ever get considered. It's such a subjective assessment, with too many variables, and would just lead to more bickering. For instance any referee who gets a few Lions S15 games a year is soon going to have a 15-0 record where they are involved.

You must have missed Gagger's blog post on Kaplan and the Waratahs - he is way outside the range of normal in terms of results. I dont think he is deliberately biased, it is just that deep down (like so many others) he hates the Waratahs.
 

Sandpit Fan

Nev Cottrell (35)
Difficult to really summarise in a post Hawko, but I will have a go I guess. Shouldn't have had that last beer.

I'm not saying history must not be used in determining appointments, just that I feel it's unlikely that it will be. In particular for Kaplan at this point it would be a public admission of failure or poor judgement on the part of the board, or a lack of confidence in Kaplans impartiality and with Kaplan on the RWC referees list, they will never allow themselves to be seen in that situation.

Also, to abuse a cliché, the bigger picture has to be looked at, as well as the practicality. The more variables the appointments board has to consider when allocating a referee will inevitably lead to louder moaning from losing teams, along the lines of "You assigned so & so, and he never enforces the offside rule properly, and that dirty aus/kiwi/saffa flanker was offside getting in the face of our 5/8 all night, so it's your fault we lost". With a limited pool of referees to choose from I think the situation would soon deteriorate to the point where there would be strong reasons why no referee would be suitable for any game, at which stage the hat & name badges need to get a run. It would at least be more impartial!

None of which makes a tahs fan feel any more confident of a fair go this weekend. When you look at the other appointments for the round it's difficult to say any sort of logical process has been applied. Stu Dickinson as the AR? Vinny Munro at Force/Crusaders. Logic would dictate that Kaplan took the Force/Cru game as a neutral, while Stu took the Tahs/Rebels game. We have Keith Brown, so I don't have high hopes for the game as a spectacle.

Langthorne: I actually found that blog post while I was typing this. I hadn't realised it was that bad. Seems like every line ball interpretation goes against the tahs with him. Presumably if it was blatantly obvious someone would have pulled him up about it - I haven't seen any of the games.
 

The Mayor of Perth

Ted Fahey (11)
I'm sorry, but I don't follow. Are all the matches "rated" and the crappest ones should get the ref deemed to be most crap by us / you / SANZAR / journos etc...?

1. There has already been a fair bit of shuffling better refs to 'better games' or inexperienced refs to 'lesser games'.
2. Peyper has only just been elevated to the higher panel.
3. Joubert is a good ref.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
Can I just say I think Mark Lawrence is one of, if not the best ref going around at the moment.
 

Baldric

Jim Clark (26)
Isn't it a tragedy that he and Dickinson are not going to the World Cup but Poite, Bryce Lawrence and Kaplan are

I was in agreement until you said Dickenson. He might be a technically correct ref, but you never see any rugby with him.
 

Refabit

Darby Loudon (17)
Can you believe no Aussie refs at RWC? Or at least only "Aussie Steve".
I don't think the good young'uns are getting a go locally. And when they do they they seem to be choosing the wrong Aussie up and coming refs to blood.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Sport24
Steve Walsh out, Peyper in

Cape Town - A recurring calf injury has forced the withdrawal of Steve Walsh from the refereeing schedule for Rounds 11 and 12 of Super Rugby.

Jaco Peyper, recently promoted to the SANZAR Merit Panel after some strong performances, will now referee the South African Conference top-of-the-table clash between the Stormers and the Sharks in Cape Town on Saturday 30 April, whilst Chris Pollock has been been appointed to referee the crucial Round 12 encounter between the Stormers and the Crusaders in Cape Town on Saturday 7 May.

With Pollock now travelling to South Africa, Garratt Williamson has been appointed to referee the clash between the Chiefs and the Highlanders in Hamilton on Saturday 7 May.

SANZAR Game Manager Lyndon Bray said Walsh was likely to be out of action for three weeks to allow him sufficient time to recover from his injury.

This weekend's referee appointments:

REFEREE AR1 AR2 TMO
Highlanders v Blues Chris Pollock Garratt Williamson Kane McBride Ben Skeen
Cheetahs v Brumbies Marius Jonker Pro Legoete Cobus Wessels Johann Meuwesen
Hurricanes v Reds Keith Brown Glen Jackson James McPhail Mike Fraser
Waratahs v Rebels Jonathan Kaplan Stuart Dickinson James Leckie Matt Goddard
Force v Crusaders Vinny Munro Nathan Pearce Julian Pritchard George Ayoub
Bulls v Chiefs Craig Joubert Tiaan Jonker Marc van Zyl Gerrie Coetzee
Stormers v Sharks Jaco Peyper Christie du Preez Phillip Bosch Shaun Veldsman
 

Refabit

Darby Loudon (17)
Wouldn't like to put pressure on them.
(Excuse the bias) but some of the Qld lads running touch at Super 15 level have the potential to step up.
They certainly would fare no worse than some of the NSW chaps who have been let loose with a whistle this year and in the recent past.
 
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