Refereeing decisions

[HJ Nelson]

This is from memory, so I may be wrong, but the directive is if a ruck is formed, both your feet need to be behind the ball.

If there is no ruck at that point (i.e. maybe the defenders disengage and fan out), one foot.

Pfitzy's pretty much spot on. This is from this years Game Management Guidelines

"At a tackle, a player can pick up the ball as long as one foot is level with or behind the ball. At a ruck, a
player can pick up the ball as long as both feet are level with or behind the ball. If a player is still bound
with an opponent, then they cannot pick up the ball."

 

[KOB1987]

Do you remember when in the game this happened? I'm struggling to find it.

I thought Wright knocked the ball forward so timing of the whistle was irrelevant.

It’s at 54 minutes. The ball definitely isn’t propelled forward, it goes up and backwards of Wright’s shoulder, then the issue gets compounded because the French guy knocks it back towards us (which is a knock on in goal) before Banks jumps on it. It’s a difficult one in real time but that’s why it should have at least gone upstairs.

 

[Adam84]

It’s at 54 minutes. The ball definitely isn’t propelled forward, it goes up and backwards of Wright’s shoulder, then the issue gets compounded because the French guy knocks it back towards us (which is a knock on in goal) before Banks jumps on it. It’s a difficult one in real time but that’s why it should have at least gone upstairs.

Yeah thats my thoughts, ball appeared to go backwards or enough doubt for it not to be blown up so early, and i really think the referee made a mistake by doing so.

At that point he blew the whistle Banks still hadn't grounded the ball, so he couldn't take it upstairs even if he wanted too.

 

[Braveheart81]

The ball 100% goes forward from Wright.

Look where he first touches the ball to where the ball is when a French hand knocks it on (back towards us).

I agree it was a refereeing mistake to blow the whistle early.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

It would have been a very brave call to call it knocked back

 

[Eyes and Ears]

The ball 100% goes forward from Wright.

Look where he first touches the ball to where the ball is when a French hand knocks it on (back towards us).

I agree it was a refereeing mistake to blow the whistle early.

Not sure that you can it a refereeing mistake to blow the whistle early once you have said it 100% went forward

 

[Brumby Runner]

Hooper is behind the ball when he picks it up so certainly within his rights. He starts pivoting around while he has his hands on the ball and it's still on the ground.

I think everything he did is legal.

His timing is such that it was pretty much impossible to stop. If they'd tried to tackle him earlier they would have been offside because the ball wasn't out of the ruck.

My impression live was that Hooper had one foot in front of the ball when he picked it up, and as (I think) Dru said actually over the tryline. I haven't seen a replay, but in real time I reckoned it was off side all day long.

 

[Braveheart81]

My impression live was that Hooper had one foot in front of the ball when he picked it up, and as (I think) Dru said actually over the tryline. I haven't seen a replay, but in real time I reckoned it was off side all day long.

Here's Hooper with both hands on the ball.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Still not decisive in respect of the left foot though.*

Also, what constitutes being attached to the ruck. Hooper doesn't seem to have a bind on anyone but both Valetini and whomever the other player over the ruck is look to be attached to him.

* the ball is behind (further from the tryline) Tupou's (?) elbow which in turn is the length of his upper arm short of the line. Hooper's toes on his left foot are (at least to me) clearly closer to the tryline.

 

[dru]

Here's Hooper with both hands on the ball.

View attachment 12470

It's at 71 min. Had another look. Hooper comes burrowing into the ruck head first clearly in a legal position and behind the ball and he does not bind. Valetini was bound to the ruck protecting the pill and pushes sideways bound to the ruck creating a barrier. I think that's fine. Hooper collects the ball from behind and then starts the shuffle. Pushes his arse around and backs over the line with ball in possession then places it.

The possible issue is whether he is bound to the ruck by others through this action. BUT it isn't any different to any series of plays where D is on the line and the attacking pack is trying to find a hole. I think it's fine re-watching on freeze frame by freeze frame.

My suspicions on foot placement were completely wrong.

PS in he post game presser Hooper had a bit of a laugh about it. NOT simply an on the spot action, but pre-meditated having previously considered things around the Goal Post rule interpretation (no longer applies) and simply found a use for it here.

 

[Pfitzy]

Pfitzy's pretty much spot on. This is from this years Game Management Guidelines

"At a tackle, a player can pick up the ball as long as one foot is level with or behind the ball. At a ruck, a
player can pick up the ball as long as both feet are level with or behind the ball. If a player is still bound
with an opponent, then they cannot pick up the ball."

Sometimes it sticks.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Last night Woki scored & Akira unsuccessfully attempted to score by diving over/ landing on top of a pile of bodies. I thought this got deemed dangerous play some years ago?

 

[cyclopath]

Last night Woki scored & Akira unsuccessfully attempted to score by diving over/ landing on top of a pile of bodies. I thought this got deemed dangerous play some years ago?

I remember seeing a penalty for someone trying to do the human cannonball over a tackler and that was not on. I can't remember the specific ruling but what you say sounds familiar.

 

[Dan54]

If you keep feet on ground you right, you can't dive over.

 

[mst]

I think its a combination of Law 15 (Ruck), section 16 (a) and Law 9 (Foul Play), section 20(s) dangerous play

Players must not:

• (a) Pick the ball up with their legs.
• (b) Intentionally collapse a ruck or jump on top of it.
• (c) Intentionally step on another player.
• (d) Fall over the ball as it is coming out of a ruck.
• (e) Kick, or attempt to kick, the ball out of a ruck.

Sanction: Penalty.

Then you add the Foul / dangerous factors in from Law 9 such as section 20 (dangerous play): Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others. Diving over the top of other players could be considered dangerous.


Old discussion here: https://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?18287-Diving-over-the-ruck-to-score

Unsurprisingly, its the usual suspects have also committed this criminal act:

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^ well if a CruSadist can do it & a ref with the Nelson Bays R.U. crest as part of his avatar reckons it's legit then I guess it's legit.... or was in 2008, anyways .

 

[liquor box]

I think its a combination of Law 15 (Ruck), section 16 (a) and Law 9 (Foul Play), section 20(s) dangerous play

Players must not:

• (a) Pick the ball up with their legs.
• (b) Intentionally collapse a ruck or jump on top of it.
• (c) Intentionally step on another player.
• (d) Fall over the ball as it is coming out of a ruck.
• (e) Kick, or attempt to kick, the ball out of a ruck.

Sanction: Penalty.


Then you add the Foul / dangerous factors in from Law 9 such as section 20 (dangerous play): Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others. Diving over the top of other players could be considered dangerous.


Old discussion here: https://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?18287-Diving-over-the-ruck-to-score

Unsurprisingly, its the usual suspects have also committed this criminal act:

• (e) Kick, or attempt to kick, the ball out of a ruck.

This is interesting, what is a kick?
The definition of a kick is - Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
Does this mean that most 9's move the ball to the back of a ruck are breaking the laws?
Very rarely do they actually use the heel of the foot, it tends to be a roll of the ball under the feet.
I dont really expect this to be enforced, unless it wins us the Bledisloe but it does highlight how the laws can have varied interpretation.
As far as the French try last night, I guess the argument would be he jumped over, not on top

 

[Drew]

• (e) Kick, or attempt to kick, the ball out of a ruck.

This is interesting, what is a kick?
The definition of a kick is - Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.
Does this mean that most 9's move the ball to the back of a ruck are breaking the laws?
Very rarely do they actually use the heel of the foot, it tends to be a roll of the ball under the feet.
I dont really expect this to be enforced, unless it wins us the Bledisloe but it does highlight how the laws can have varied interpretation.
As far as the French try last night, I guess the argument would be he jumped over, not on top

I’m not a ref, but I think that rule applies to when the team defending the ruck is kicking at the ball when a ruck is formed. Could be wrong, but that’s the only way I’ve seen that rule enforced

 

[Braveheart81]

I’m not a ref, but I think that rule applies to when the team defending the ruck is kicking at the ball when a ruck is formed. Could be wrong, but that’s the only way I’ve seen that rule enforced

Yes, it was brought in a few years ago to stop defenders who had stepped through a ruck kicking the ball out of the ruck.

It was previously a tactic to disrupt the opposition ball but not actually try and win the ball.

 

[Drew]

Yes, it was brought in a few years ago to stop defenders who had stepped through a ruck kicking the ball out of the ruck.

It was previously a tactic to disrupt the opposition ball but not actually try and win the ball.

Thanks. I thought so.