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Refereeing decisions

badabing59

Cyril Towers (30)
I thought this article in the Sunday Times (UK) from the poisonous pen of Stephen Jones fairly well sums up the current law interpretations, and lack of spine from governing bodies. Sorry can't post the link as it's subsciption.



Confusion over rugby rules causes anarchy in the UK

When is a forward pass not a forward pass? The law of the game manages to mystify both spectators and commentators

THE snakes of anarchy are slithering throughout rugby. Laws and officiating are nearing total collapse, causing confusion and anger. The rule book, supposedly the core of the whole activity, is now treated as a rough guide, a series of options, of which even the key elements can be ignored on a whim. The 2015 Rugby World Cup could deliver six weeks of controversy and fury. In a nutshell, no one knows what the current laws actually are.
Examine written accounts or television replays or social media comment on almost all big rugby matches (and probably most amateur games) and you will see growing chaos, coaches ranting, spectators bewildered, bizarre interaction between the officials. And your team, the one you paid to watch, are losing for random reasons. The anarchy is spreading.
But what you will not hear is any reaction from the governing body, which wrote the laws and is supposed to interpret them, impose them and administer them. The International Rugby Board hierarchy is mute. Stone-cold silent.
Examples? How many do you need? Perhaps the crippling inertia is typified by the scrum feed. It has been as crooked as a dog’s hind leg for decades and contributed to the disappearance of scrum skills. So the IRB brought in new scrum protocols, a key tenet of which was the straight put-in. For about three weeks last September referees insisted on it. Now, after less than one season, we are back to the dog’s hind leg and no referee is still asking for the law to be applied. And what of the IRB, backing up its instruction, insisting that referees penalise the crooked put-in? Mute.
We know the breakdown and tackle area has been a farce but it is now a random shambles. Watch Super 15 games and the players are illegally on the floor in a crabbing mass.
The ruck? In every game we see players charging in and smashing helpless opponents, even though that is against the law, which says they must be bound on a teammate as they enter.
The scrum? Most referees let teams push illegally before the ball arrives. Offside? Every high kick is seemingly pursued by chasers in front of the kicker. Rear feet offside? The last man penalised for this offence was Noah.
As for forward passes, there are no longer any. Let me recap for anyone (clearly including the IRB) who failed to grasp the denunciation of the “momentum rule” in these pages before Christmas. An Australian rugby coach found, by marking parallel lines across a field one yard apart, that passes looking to the naked eye to have been fair and backward in reality travelled forward because of the physics law of relative velocity. Longer passes ruled legal actually travelled well forward.
The IRB then made a clown-like, non-sequiturial error. It loosened the application of the law to farcical proportions and said many passes looking forward to the naked eye were to be allowed as long as the hands of the receiver faced forward, arguing that the ball could not have been passed forward to him if his hands were facing it.
That missed the point horribly. Go back to the parallel lines. They proved a huge number of passes that looked backward to the naked eye were forward. Therefore if a pass looks forward to the naked eye, it must be way forward, off-the-planet forward.
The sport is now duly swamped with frightened referees opting out of blowing up for blatant forward passes because they may be falling foul of an unseen science. It is drivel. The only way to go is to revert (immediately) to the trusted maxim that if the pass looks forward to the naked eyes of the referee and touch judges then it is definitively forward. As for relative velocity, who the hell cares? It can velocity off.
The referee is a sportsman, not a scientist. It is remarkable how well the experts such as Wayne Barnes and Nigel Owens manage to cope.
Far too many IRB laws and law revisions are ill-conceived and badly explained, as well as simply forgotten. But, far worse, the process and central machinery for imposing them and maintaining uniformity does not even exist. The laws are handed down from on high and all the unions, referees’ bodies, coaches, individual referees and players are expected to get on with it.
There is no back-up, no reinforcement, no ready central source of reference for clarification, no insistence that referees apply the laws, nothing. The IRB talks always of cascading information down into the game. But instead, it all disappears off into a trillion scattered rivulets, to take wrong turns, to become poisonous to the original ethos, to peter out and to dry up in dead ends. The whole process is a pathetic disservice to rugby.
Anarchy in the UK — and across the world.
 

Forcefield

Ken Catchpole (46)
If referees didn't do an average job, who would we have to blame when our team loses? The players? The coach? Referees fucking up is a necessary evil. It happens all the time and good teams just learn to live with it.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
The ruck? In every game we see players charging in and smashing helpless opponents, even though that is against the law, which says they must be bound on a teammate as they enter.
Except he's wrong on this one.
The law says:
A player joining a ruck must bind on a team-mate or an opponent, using the whole arm. The bind must either precede, or be simultaneous with, contact with any other part of the body of the player joining the ruck.

And he also does not understand the definition of a forward pass:
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.
Pretty simple really - it must go from your hands towards the opponents goal line. If it is thrown toward your own goal line it does not matter what trajectory it travels on nor where, relative to the pint from which it was thrown, it lands. This is basic stuff.
The experiment he cites was actually done to show the effect of momentum not to refute it.

I wish I was a subscriber so I could take this stuffed shirt down a peg or 2.
 

badabing59

Cyril Towers (30)
I wish I was a subscriber so I could take this stuffed shirt down a peg or 2.


Good luck with that. Most of his articles don't get commented on at all, and others a mere 3-5 comments.
If you dare to criticize him on his twitter account (which I did) he bans you. Doesn't take too well to contrary opinions.

I'm just waiting for the anti-NZ vitriol to start soon with the upcoming Poms tour. :rolleyes:

Regarding the forward pass issue, I'd love to roll back to yesteryear when if it looked forward, it probably was, and was pinged accordingly. Yes legions of hard done by supporters and fans complained vociferously, however we still do that now with all the technology available., and to add insult to perceived injury, we now have to suffer yet another bloody stoppage for a TMO descision.
 

Rob42

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
If Jones is suggesting that all passes that end up closer to opponents goal line than where they started be ruled forward, he's setting himself up for disaster. Most passes fall into this category when the attacking back line is in motion.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
Jones is expert at missing a point, and whining about anything to do with SH rugby. From what I have seen, the breakdowns up north are not demonstrably different to those down south. Apart from the teams involved! ;)
As for his blathering about forward passes, the only salient point was that pinging the passes that look forward out of the hands sounds like a good idea, as was demonstrated by that video, which he seems to dislike, and was coincidentally put together by an Australian.
I will agree with him about the blind-eye being turned to scrum feeds again, and the strange practices being allowed with clean outs of uninvolved players, and taking players out of play well past the breakdown.


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ChargerWA

Mark Loane (55)
What about Kafer's assertion on Friday night that for passes that could be judged either way, the attacking team gets the benefit of the doubt?

I dislike drawing a line in the sand and saying that it should become the global interpretation, but in the face of the constant use of the TMO to check the last pass it almost has to be the way forward if we don't want scoring to only go in multiples of 3.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
If Jones is suggesting that all passes that end up closer to opponents goal line than where they started be ruled forward, he's setting himself up for disaster. Most passes fall into this category when the attacking back line is in motion.

I think badabing sussed this out: the AB's will be running at the poms flat and hard scoring tries in which there will undoubtedly be passes caught closer to the try line than they were thrown.
If you complain before the event no one accuses you of being a sore loser - just a dickhead!
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
What about Kafer's assertion on Friday night that for passes that could be judged either way, the attacking team gets the benefit of the doubt?

In general, this is the decision that should be reached in my opinion but not because you're giving the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team.

Calling a forward pass (like a knock on etc.) requires you to make a judgement that the ball travelled forward out of the players hands. If you can't make that decision then it is play on and whatever happened afterwards can continue.

Kafer has obviously ruffled some feathers by using the term benefit of the doubt to the attacking team, but realistically, he's right. The attacking team gets to keep playing until they do something that the referee judges to have broken the laws.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
What is the relative passage in the law book that says anything about backwards from the hands?

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Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
What is the relative passage in the law book that says anything about backwards from the hands?

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There isn't a passage, but it's the only sensible way to determine whether or not a pass has been thrown forward as the law states:

A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

Obviously a ball being thrown backwards from the hands cannot be a forward pass.........



Halfpenny threw the ball backward but it went forward. "An object in motion stays in motion," wrote Newton, "with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force." Fall out of a moving car and you will hit the ground not at the spot at which you left the vehicle but, depending on its speed, some metres in front. Take a running jump off the back of a moving truck and, again, you fall forward of the point you left it.

Law 12 is simple in its definition: "A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward." 'Forward' means towards the opposition's dead ball line." The one stated exception to the rule is if a ball is not thrown forward but hits a player or the ground and then bounces forward.

The Australian Rugby Union issued a video seven years ago explaining why momentum meant that a pass looking forward was illusory and that spectators who yelled at a referee to blow up after the player passing the ball was tackled immediately after releasing it were wrong: it merely looked forward because by the time the receiver caught it, he was well in front of the prone passer whereas had both continued their runs unchecked, he would have remained behind.

The video also showed how, when a player is running at pace, if he delivered a forward pass it would almost be impossible for the receiver to catch the ball because it would be so far in front of him. The International Rugby Board issued a clarification to its throw forward regulation before the 2011 World Cup, emphasising the points raised in the video, and they have been observed by referees and television match officials since.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/05/the-breakdown-rugby-union-forward-pass
 

GunnerDownUnder

Jim Clark (26)
The direction of a pass is relative to the player making it and not to the actual path relative to the ground. A player running towards his opponents’ goal line may throw the ball towards a colleague who is behind him but because of the thrower’s own momentum the ball travels forward relative to the ground. This is not a forward pass as the thrower has not passed the ball forward in relation to himself. This is particularly noticeable when a running player makes a high, lobbed pass.


Not so in Union though...
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
My point is all the talk about backwards from the hands is just that. Talk. Is not mentioned in the law book in fact a far as I know it's not mentioned anywhere.

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Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
My point is all the talk about backwards from the hands is just that. Talk. Is not mentioned in the law book in fact a far as I know it's not mentioned anywhere.

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I guess a lot of the laws are like that though. The wording is very simple and brief but to understand it there needs to be more insight and discussion into what the law actually means.

It's somewhat similar to the much hated double movement that we see discussed regularly including Rob Horne's non try against the Blues on Friday.

Marto in particular complains that it doesn't say double movement anywhere in the laws, but when the referee and the TMO have the discussion about it, that's not what they're actually concerned about.

They're trying to work out whether the tackled player broke the law of not releasing/placing the ball immediately. To determine whether or not they are guilty of breaking that law, they need to determine whether the player made another movement after being tackled before they placed the ball. Hence the discussion about double movements yet there being nothing about double movements in the laws.
 

swingpass

Peter Sullivan (51)
i think our sunday morning touch rules should apply,
namely,

forward but in the context of a beautiful sweeping backline move, allowable

forward, but of no advantage to the team in possession,

not forward enough, all play on

then forward, embarrassingly so, and finally forward, deliberate.

we have a lot of lawyers playing, so there is ample discussion re above.

in all seriousness, i understand the physics, but in the old days if the pass went forward sufficiently all could see and the ref adjudged accordingly. some borderline ones were called and some not. i think give the ref the decision, not the TMO. the system to review two plays before a try was introduced to avoid absolute howlers, not marginal calls and the endless scrutiny of every movement. whatever happened to law No 1, the referee is the sole judge of fact
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I definitely think synthetic footballs have made judging forward passes more difficult just because many more players can pass the ball much further (and regularly do).
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
In the HEC Semi Final yesterday between Toulon and Munster, Zebo scored a try for Munster in the corner but initial pictures didn't show a clear grounding.

Referee Wayne Barnes was in a very good position behind the players and checked with immediately checked with his touch judge that Zebo didn't put a foot in touch. Once that was confirmed he awarded the try.

The commentary team branded his decision as "potentially controversial" because he didn't check with the TMO. But he's the ref and he was happy he saw the grounding and his touch judge was happy Zebo didn't go into touch.

This is the kind of pressure that's on Refs now that they are almost expected to check every try with the TMO and not trust their own judgement or those of their assistants.

But fair play to the official yesterday for trusting their own ability. Also replays from another angle showed Barnes was right about the grounding.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
My point is all the talk about backwards from the hands is just that. Talk. Is not mentioned in the law book in fact a far as I know it's not mentioned anywhere.

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I suspect I won't convince you.

Slim has cited the law.
"throw forward" means to throw towards the opponent's goal line.
"throw" means to propel with force through the air.
Therefore for it be a forward pass it must be propelled with force toward opp goal line: i.e. the propulsion must be towards the opp goal line. If you propel it towards your own goal line thats all that matters. The wind for instance can blow it so that someone catches it who is closer to the opp goal line than you are but that will not make it a forward pass - even if you are standing still.
Anyway, this is exactly what Barnes wanted; we go down this path every 12 months; I will say no more.
 
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