Reds vs Chiefs -Suncorp Stadium 13 May

[RedsHappy]

..... but your comment would be like saying - I hope the Reds don't make the finals as to shut up their uneducated loud mouthed fans.....Of course that's not what I think....but plenty think that of Reds supporters. And just for the record I hope the Reds don't make it and 3 NZ teams do

Pray tell, to whom do you refer? Who are these 'plenty'?

 

[Slim 293]

You are obviously missing my point. Gill has as many or more games from the bench this season as opposed to starting and therefore his minutes would be far below that of either player. I am not saying he is better or any of that nonsense, but comparing statistics is not really relevant because Hooper and David has played many more minutes. Still with far less minutes, he has the most pilfers.

Apparently Hooper only has approx 40 minutes more gametime over 12 rounds...

Don't forget that Hooper hasn't started every game either...

And the Reds have played one extra game to the Brumbies...

But I'm not denying that Gill is just as good as Pocock and Hooper when it comes to pilfers...

It's the other aspects of the game where Hooper clearly eclipses Gill...

 

[ACT Crusader]

Pray tell, to whom do you refer? Who are these 'plenty'?

Come to Canberra and you'll find them. And if you ever get to go to Wellington to watch a Reds v Canes game (as I have done) you might see more than banter going on between fans, and lets just say the Reds fans intellect regarding the game was being challenged!

But it's a case in point that throw away lines with superlatives and generalisations don't usually stack up.

 

[Cutter]

FASCINATING CONTRAST:

Scenario A: 2010-11: QC (Quade Cooper) gives HRH R McCaw a head tap and a few such like. Nothing serious, bit silly maybe, but paying out the ABs for raw stuff on the Wallabies that we've all seen in he past. QC (Quade Cooper) plays a brilliant role for the Reds (and sometimes for the Walls), and frightens the the bejesus out of the the Kiwis that he might pull off the RWC for the Wallabies.

Consequence of A: Instant National Furore in NZ in all media, travesty of national honourable rugby standards and pride alleged v QC (Quade Cooper), vitriol poured out over QC (Quade Cooper)'s NZ-to-Aus background, image, 'traitor to NZ', 'cheap shot merchant', etc. During RWC, QC (Quade Cooper) mercilessly booed and verbally attacked at _every_ opportunity whilst in NZ. Sir G Henry: 'He brought it upon himself.'

Scenario B: During May 13, 2012 Reds v Chiefs S15 game, 'the star' AB SBW (who spent a large part of his career building status in Australia only to return, seemingly temporarily, to NZ and play there), after a tackle aggressively, unprovoked and totally unnecessarily pushes Reds' Shipperley's head into the turf, not a light teasing pat, but a real thrust down with hard intent.

Consequence of B: Precisely nothing, bar a quick jest from the Australian comms during the game in question. Not a word of critique or assessment of this gratuitous cheap shot on an Oz player in any NZ media. Never to be heard of again.

Conclusions From Contrasting Data Assessed: NZ's rugby commentators and general rugby culture is rife with hypocrisy and will consistently seek to gain self-elevating advantage from incidents that can be used to manipulate public opinion and work-over the national obsession for the AB's gain, no matter how shameless the double standards deployed.

Hang on:

McCaw - highly respect AB captain and multiple IRB player of the year winner with, at the time, close to 100 caps to his name and widely regarded as a good bloke;
Cooper - show pony Wallaby still to make his mark as a top class international player (with the jury out as to whether he's a good bloke);

SBW - world class athlete in League, Union and national champion boxer (with the jury out as to whether he's a good bloke);
Shipperley - promising Reds winger have a great breakout season in Super Rugby (with all appearances suggesting he's a modest, hard working, good young man);

The contrast is in the personnel. The contrast is also in the circumstances in that SBW had just tackled Shipperley and "dominated" him and wanted to make it known. QC (Quade Cooper) had to run from 5 metres away to get near McCaw. These contrasts lead to the contrasting consequences.

 

[tranquility]

Apparently Hooper only has approx 40 minutes more gametime over 12 rounds...

Don't forget that Hooper hasn't started every game either...

And the Reds have played one extra game to the Brumbies...

But I'm not denying that Gill is just as good as Pocock and Hooper when it comes to pilfers...

It's the other aspects of the game where Hooper clearly eclipses Gill...

Sorry to keep fueling this, but where did you get the numbers that he has only played 40 mins more? I would haphazard a guess that you are merely speculating. I look forward to the duel of the jackals in Canberra, hopefully we humiliate your pack like we did at suncorp.

 

[Cutter]

Irrespective of our views, the Wallaby selectors will choose one soon. In any event, we should count ourselves lucky that we move from Poido to David Wilson to George Smith (and Phil Waugh and David Croft) to Pocock with Hooper and Gill snapping at his heels. There aren't many nations who have consistently produced such quality 7s over such a period. Maybe only the ABs although I think they had some gaps: M Jones, Josh Kronfeld (small gap) to McCaw.

If only the quality of our 3s was as high.

 

[tranquility]

I wish I was old enough to have watched Michael Jones.

 

[Slim 293]

Sorry to keep fueling this, but where did you get the numbers that he has only played 40 mins more? I would haphazard a guess that you are merely speculating. I look forward to the duel of the jackals in Canberra, hopefully we humiliate your pack like we did at suncorp.

I'm going by the figures Brumsfan posted:

Mins played

Pocock -880
Hooper 596
Gill 548

Don't forget that Hooper didn't start in a few games, and was subbed off for Vaea in many of the earlier matches...

It wasn't until after the Reds game that White really started to give Hooper a regular 80 minutes...

The Reds humiliated the Brumbies' pack?

I don't know about humiliated... that's certainly an enormous exaggeration...

I'm sure White won't make the same mistake twice by not picking Hooper in the starting XV... he made an instant impact in that game which saw the Brumbies' begin to dominate the latter stages of the match...

 

[tranquility]

Humiliate was a massive exaggeration, I thought that's what my sign meant?
The match in Canberra in a fortnight should be trench warfare at it's best, as it will be a grand final or sorts for the Australian conference. Not quite winner takes all (in terms of progressing) but pretty darn close. With Quade being out, I think our MVP is A.Finger, and I don't think it is coincidence that our standards have lifted since he has been back. Ironic that he was unwanted by the Brumbies, and I hope Saaia is also starting for this homecoming for the lads.

 

[Slim 293]

Well, Fainga'a had continuous injuries, and Tyrone Smith had a breakout season which resulted in him being rookie of the year... plus we had Mortlock, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), and Fairbanks (who was pretty instrumental in the Brumbies' late surge in 2009)

Let's not forget that Fainga'a wasn't exactly given many opportunities at the Reds until Link came along...

But it should be an interesting match...

Unfortunately Lilo won't be there, but there'll still be some good matchups...

 

[Scotty]

Hooper should be picked for the wallabies, only thing that might hold him back is the timing of the first game. Force and reds have byes before it.

 

[Dan54]

I wish I was old enough to have watched Michael Jones.

Tranquility,he really was a treat to watch,lol and perhaps one thing advantage of being my age, I saw him (and Meads, Lohore etc when a young un). Geez I thought I was much younger than I am!!!!

 

[Schadenfreude]

So it turns out, if you're being tackled, turn half way through and go to the ground with your shoulders below your hips... you get someone sent off.

Cue the crusaders using that tactic in the finals?

 

[Penguin]

Come to Canberra and you'll find them. And if you ever get to go to Wellington to watch a Reds v Canes game (as I have done) you might see more than banter going on between fans, and lets just say the Reds fans intellect regarding the game was being challenged!

But it's a case in point that throw away lines with superlatives and generalisations don't usually stack up.

Mate, you can go anywhere & find boorish fans from any team who are ignorant of the finer aspects of the game. Yes, even Wellington. What a rubbish comment!

 

[tigerland12]

Hooper should be picked for the wallabies, only thing that might hold him back is the timing of the first game. Force and reds have byes before it.

Really? Right now it has to be Pocock>Hodgson>Gill>Hooper
Can't just throw in a rookie against Scotland, John Barclay is no slouch. Assuming Pocock is rested, Hodgson has the experience and ability at this stage.

 

[Reido]

Mins played
Pocock -880
Hooper 596
Gill 548

Divide their points earned per minutes played and that stat would show Pocock is ranked 3rd out of the three players.

 

[RedsHappy]

Hang on:

McCaw - highly respect AB captain and multiple IRB player of the year winner with, at the time, close to 100 caps to his name and widely regarded as a good bloke;
Cooper - show pony Wallaby still to make his mark as a top class international player (with the jury out as to whether he's a good bloke);

SBW - world class athlete in League, Union and national champion boxer (with the jury out as to whether he's a good bloke);
Shipperley - promising Reds winger have a great breakout season in Super Rugby (with all appearances suggesting he's a modest, hard working, good young man);

The contrast is in the personnel. The contrast is also in the circumstances in that SBW had just tackled Shipperley and "dominated" him and wanted to make it known. QC (Quade Cooper) had to run from 5 metres away to get near McCaw. These contrasts lead to the contrasting consequences.

I don't think so. And for course that's not the point. You seemingly justify - or explain - the contrast with an ersatz sporting morality code that's a kind of Old England elitism: If a 'show pony' cheap shots a 'highly prestigious good bloke' it's sort of understandable that he's harassed and condemned at a national level for weeks and weeks on end and clear attempts are made to undermine his later play in NZ. And if a 'world class athlete' like SBW 'dominates' a young low-profile player then cheap shots him with a head thrust into the dirt, that's kind of understandable too in terms of 'no one's interested' as 'the personnel' are so different to that of the king and the flashy footman.

I wanted to and believe I have exposed the complete hypocrisy in all this. Whether someone's 'a good bloke' or not (and who decides this btw?) and 'prestigious' or not is totally irrelevant in terms of fair and proper standards in this context. The same standards of evaluation and reaction should apply to both cheap shots.

(And yes, I believe what was done to deliberately undermine QC (Quade Cooper) throughout the RWC was disgraceful and hypocritical and in my view - and that of many of my rugby mates here who went to the RWC - compromised NZ's reputation for decency and fair play for a very long time. What mattered over there and then was nothing - repeat nothing - but winning and they compromised and, with these harassing episodes, tarnished their integrity in the gaining.)

 

[Cutter]

(And yes, I believe what was done to deliberately undermine QC (Quade Cooper) throughout the RWC was disgraceful and hypocritical and in my view - and that of many of my rugby mates here who went to the RWC - compromised NZ's reputation for decency and fair play for a very long time. What mattered over there and then was nothing - repeat nothing - but winning and they compromised and, with these harassing episodes, tarnished their integrity in the gaining.)

I agree with that. But I do think there is a difference between the two incidents. Probably the key (and I accept much of what I put in there is subject but that is how humans operate) is that SBW did his face rub as part of a tackle. QC (Quade Cooper) ran from the other side of the ruck to push RM in the head when he was on the ground and not looking.

QC (Quade Cooper) subsequently challenged the NZ public to hate him and they accepted the challenge. I don't condone what they did, but he did, at least in part, bring it on himself.

 

[emuarse]

(And yes, I believe what was done to deliberately undermine QC (Quade Cooper) throughout the RWC was disgraceful and hypocritical and in my view - and that of many of my rugby mates here who went to the RWC - compromised NZ's reputation for decency and fair play for a very long time. What mattered over there and then was nothing - repeat nothing - but winning and they compromised and, with these harassing episodes, tarnished their integrity in the gaining.)

Even thugby league doesn't step down to this level

 

[Slim 293]

Really? Right now it has to be Pocock>Hodgson>Gill>Hooper
Can't just throw in a rookie against Scotland, John Barclay is no slouch. Assuming Pocock is rested, Hodgson has the experience and ability at this stage.

You be trippin...

On form Hodgson has no chance...

Hooper to deputies Pocock...

Gill to u20s (join squad later)....

Hodgson to watch on TV...

By your logic we wouldn't have played George Smith in his motm debut performance against France...

But that's irrelevant because Pocock will start anyways...