Reds 2021

[Jimmy_Crouch]

Thorn and the reds are not as good at finding and holding onto young talent as Mckellar. Especially in the backs. The reds forwards are extremely promising but backs reserves do not run deep, and the ones we have are not (my opinion) the best of the bunch, if you look at wallaby selection and general stats. I know for a fact that the system and environment down in Canberra is amazing. I also know a couple of young very talented players who have changed agents just so the reds will consider them because of this piccone shite.

Disappointed about losing some clients?

 

[Gervais_rugbylives]

Disappointed about losing some clients?

I am not associated with the piccone business at all. I am just saying that the Reds aren't going to give much to those still connected to him.

 

[Cancelled Account]

Thorn and the reds are not as good at finding and holding onto young talent as Mckellar. Especially in the backs. The reds forwards are extremely promising but backs reserves do not run deep, and the ones we have are not (my opinion) the best of the bunch, if you look at wallaby selection and general stats. I know for a fact that the system and environment down in Canberra is amazing. I also know a couple of young very talented players who have changed agents just so the reds will consider them because of this piccone shite.

This whole Piccone debacle has proved a few things about QRU, with the obvious being that QRU have allowed their egos get the better of them instead of working alongside the most powerful agent in Australian. If former quality QLD players like Kerevi, Rodda, Hockings, Lucas, and Gordon x 2 have stuck with this outfit its because they are in a position to dictate the terms of their rugby careers. I’m all for playing for the jersey but the state of rugby in Australia will have quality players chasing the best opportunities and dollars. From what I’m hearing I think Piccone and his players have won this battle. I thinks it’s fair to say that players dropping Piccone to get in opportunity with the Reds will be second tier players on very low dollar contract deals and I don’t know if that’s what we should be chasing. Best outcome for all is that QRU and Piccone end this dispute for the best interest of Queensland rugby.

 

[TSR]

Hasn’t Piccone openly expressed a view that the Reds/QRU/RA should just serve as a pathway to sending all the best players OS though? Hasn’t he been consistently underhanded in his dealings and worked to undermine the QRU in several player negotiations? Maybe I’ve misunderstood the situation, but why would the QRU try and build a bridge with someone who has openly expressed he wants to actively work against their interests.

I completely understand your frustration at losing good players but you seem willing to lay all the blame at the QRU when Piccone has, from everything I’ve read, acted extremely poorly and in direct conflict with QRU interests. Why in the world would you expect a sporting organisation to compromise themselves to such an extent.

BTW is it true that Gordon had actually flicked Piccone, but he went and negotiated a deal anyway? If so, doesn’t that contradict your statement that it is second tier players?

 

[Cancelled Account]

Hasn’t Piccone openly expressed a view that the Reds/QRU/RA should just serve as a pathway to sending all the best players OS though? Hasn’t he been consistently underhanded in his dealings and worked to undermine the QRU in several player negotiations? Maybe I’ve misunderstood the situation, but why would the QRU try and build a bridge with someone who has openly expressed he wants to actively work against their interests.

I completely understand your frustration at losing good players but you seem willing to lay all the blame at the QRU when Piccone has, from everything I’ve read, acted extremely poorly and in direct conflict with QRU interests. Why in the world would you expect a sporting organisation to compromise themselves to such an extent.

BTW is it true that Gordon had actually flicked Piccone, but he went and negotiated a deal anyway? If so, doesn’t that contradict your statement that it is second tier players?

I think all agents have a place in our rugby community and from what I’ve heard it’s about who is in bed with who. Agents pulling the better dollars with the better players are known to be working for the player. I’ve been there and I know how it works. The franchise wants the best players for the least dollars. There’s only so much that can go around and one of the parties are going to pick up the ball and leave when they don’t get their own way.
I’ve heard a few stories regarding Gordon but not directly from him so I can’t really speculate. But I have spoken to 2 of the Piccone 3 and it wasn’t just about the dollars but the empty promises and treatment. QRU has been in shambles from 2010 with players signed to leave the year before they won the Super Rugby Premiership. It was common knowledge that the players were playing for players and coach but detested the management. I think we need new blood in QRU so we can retain the talent we develop as we are getting this massively wrong. Look at the Wallabies squad and count the players who went to school in Queensland. I rest my case.

EDIT. I’m certainly not an advocate of Piccone but from an outsider looking in, Piccone is winning this battle to the demise of Queensland rugby.

 

[TSR]

Okay - but none that addresses the specific things I asked about Piccone above, who you are suggesting that the Reds need to get back on good terms with. Nor for that matter does the fact that the players have claimed they were being harshly dealt with mean that is actually true. It certainly could be, but I’d argue the evidence of the larger player group seems to reflect a group largely content.

I’m not trying to defend QRU management itself. I agree that they generally have been terrible - although I do see a lot better things with the current incarnation. But I’m not trying to suggest they’ve been great. I know there were significant splits between the playing group and management in the past. Some players were shabbily treated, but I also know from personal experience some of those players became incredibly self-centred and to point the finger solely at management for all the QRUs ills is wrong. But most the key offenders have moved on, have they?

To return to my central point here - why would the QRU want to build a bridge/get into bed specifically with Piccone if it is true that he has openly endorsed a strategy which reduces their relevance and where he has previously been underhanded in his dealings with them.

 

[Adam84]

Piccones a grub and he has been doing it for year, he knowingly has player sign contracts which overlaps with previous ones and then demands an early release and threatens court action if the ARU don’t release them, this dates back years and the players weren’t even aware of the position they’d been put in.

Digby Ioane fell out with the Reds because Piccone said it was their job to find Digby a third party contract, and demanded he be released, despite this been the responsibility of the manager.

 

[dru]

Players ditching Piccone? Good.

Time for Qld rugby to move on. Leave the grub(s) behind. We have rugby to play, it doesn't need these guys.

 

[emuarse]

I personally believe a transfer fee should be imposed where a Reds player who has been coached at considerable expense; had facilities such as gym training etc, decides to leave because of dollar incentive, or even if he sees a career opening at an interstate or overseas club.
For instance if a Japanese club throws in big dollars that the Reds, Waratahs, Brumbies etc cannot match, then surely a one-off transfer fee to assist the club retain other players should be applied. and don't give me this bullshit about restriction of trade etc. If the player knowingly signs a contract which includes a fee of x percent, then that is open & transparent.
That transfer fee would somewhat diminish the management fee vultures like Piconne obtain, as the player would become more expensive in the market place. The fee imposed could be at the discretion of the club losing the player, within the terms of the contract. So for a loyal player who is approaching the end of his playing life, though still commands high income, the fee could be waived.

 

[TSR]

I don’t know enough about the commercial realities of transfer fees to know if that would work in practice - but can I clarify one thing, is there any other agent that the QRU won’t deal with?

 

[Cancelled Account]

Okay - but none that addresses the specific things I asked about Piccone above, who you are suggesting that the Reds need to get back on good terms with. Nor for that matter does the fact that the players have claimed they were being harshly dealt with mean that is actually true. It certainly could be, but I’d argue the evidence of the larger player group seems to reflect a group largely content.

I’m not trying to defend QRU management itself. I agree that they generally have been terrible - although I do see a lot better things with the current incarnation. But I’m not trying to suggest they’ve been great. I know there were significant splits between the playing group and management in the past. Some players were shabbily treated, but I also know from personal experience some of those players became incredibly self-centred and to point the finger solely at management for all the QRUs ills is wrong. But most the key offenders have moved on, have they?

To return to my central point here - why would the QRU want to build a bridge/get into bed specifically with Piccone if it is true that he has openly endorsed a strategy which reduces their relevance and where he has previously been underhanded in his dealings with them.

Since Thorny has been around there is more cohesion than the past 10 years but look at the quality players we have lost in that time. The players of late have left because of management and not Thorn. I don’t know the intricacies of the dealings that QPR has had with Piccone, but how is the hell can an agent come off better than a Super Rugby club. Our key quality players are dropping like flies and you think sitting back with our egotistical approach and hoping to hell this falls in our favour at some point is the right course of action. I don’t.

 

[Cancelled Account]

I personally believe a transfer fee should be imposed where a Reds player who has been coached at considerable expense; had facilities such as gym training etc, decides to leave because of dollar incentive, or even if he sees a career opening at an interstate or overseas club.
For instance if a Japanese club throws in big dollars that the Reds, Waratahs, Brumbies etc cannot match, then surely a one-off transfer fee to assist the club retain other players should be applied. and don't give me this bullshit about restriction of trade etc. If the player knowingly signs a contract which includes a fee of x percent, then that is open & transparent.
That transfer fee would somewhat diminish the management fee vultures like Piconne obtain, as the player would become more expensive in the market place. The fee imposed could be at the discretion of the club losing the player, within the terms of the contract. So for a loyal player who is approaching the end of his playing life, though still commands high income, the fee could be waived.

This is a motion put forward a couple of years ago but has gone nowhere. It would need to be endorsed by WR (World Rugby) and has great merit.

 

[Cancelled Account]

Piccones a grub and he has been doing it for year, he knowingly has player sign contracts which overlaps with previous ones and then demands an early release and threatens court action if the ARU don’t release them, this dates back years and the players weren’t even aware of the position they’d been put in.

Digby Ioane fell out with the Reds because Piccone said it was their job to find Digby a third party contract, and demanded he be released, despite this been the responsibility of the manager.

What’s bloody RUPA doing about this shit? If all of these shenanigans are true how can this clown continue to operate within Australian rugby.

 

[Wilson]

What’s bloody RUPA doing about this shit? If all of these shenanigans are true how can this clown continue to operate within Australian rugby.

There was talk of them investigating Piccone over the way the rumoured Gordon contract was negotiated, haven't heard anything else about it though.

 

[TSR]

Since Thorny has been around there is more cohesion than the past 10 years but look at the quality players we have lost in that time. The players of late have left because of management and not Thorn. I don’t know the intricacies of the dealings that QPR has had with Piccone, but how is the hell can an agent come off better than a Super Rugby club. Our key quality players are dropping like flies and you think sitting back with our egotistical approach and hoping to hell this falls in our favour at some point is the right course of action. I don’t.

I’m not suggesting for a second the Reds sit on their hands. But while your looking at the players we’ve lost, I’m looking at the ones we’ve retained, many who are very vocal about not wanting to leave - Hoopert, Tupou, Salakai-Loto, Wright, Blyth, Wilson, McReight, McDermott, Stewart, Petaia, Campbell. ‘Key players dropping like flies’ just doesn’t describe the situation IMO - although, of course, we don’t really know the full extent of the damage COVID will do.

With Regards to dealing specifically with Piccone, they’ve shut him out of negotiations and it sounds like some players (including a Gordon, initially at least) decided to flick him as a manager as a result. I thought I did read that the RUPA was looking into him after Gordon signed with Melbourne, but no idea how much substance there was to that or what the outcome was.

The reality is you aren’t going to get everyone and, by luck or design, Piccone has managed to get all the upcoming young 10s on his books. Which is definitely a problem - no question.

But is 10 actually critical for us at the moment? Most of us expect O’Connor to be named Wallaby 10 this week and while many assume he is holding a place until the next Gen are ready if I recall correctly he did always want to be a 10. You’d assume he is here until the next World Cup, and then there is the Lions tour just after that. Maybe we already have our premier 10. Doesn’t for a second mean I wouldn’t love to have Gordon there or Pasitoa - but when you only have so much to spend on player salaries some guys are going to look for opportunities elsewhere and the Rebels need to pay overs, whilst the Brumbies have undoubtedly led the market in roster management for some time and realised that they needed options to cover the departure of CLL.

 

[dru]

But is 10 actually critical for us at the moment?

TSR I basically agree with you but this statement raises eyebrows. JOC (James O'Connor) is great and we will do well. Nor do I think his age is an issue. But yes 10 is critical. We desperately need the next gen 10s fighting for the 22 jumper and gaining exposure. I do think this is a big issue. It was happening prior to the Piccone three stuffing up excellent planning. Time to bring in the next wave of talent.

 

[Sully]

Need yes. desperately? No.

 

[dru]

Need yes. desperately? No.

Ah, a single word making a difference. OK. But desperation will come if we don’t have the ability to implement short to mid term planning. Ideally it needs to start next season.

 

[TSR]

To be clear I would much rather have a good, young 10 on our books. But personally I was very happy with how O’Connor went at 10. We have Hegarty & Stewart as back ups.

A good young 10 as a project player would be a great off-season signing but, at this point, they are someone coming through the system behind O’Connor, not someone who we want to take the reigns this year or next. IMO.

Out of interest - who else is floating out there in club land?

 

[Derpus]

I personally believe a transfer fee should be imposed where a Reds player who has been coached at considerable expense; had facilities such as gym training etc, decides to leave because of dollar incentive, or even if he sees a career opening at an interstate or overseas club.

They can probably demand a transfer fee if a club comes in for a contracted player. Not sure on the legality of this in Aus but it's common practice in Soccer.

Most players leave off contract meaning the club has no legal interest.

Edit: If transfer fees were to become a thing you would need to start signing players up to 4-5 year contracts so that there are far less players off-contract at any one time, forcing clubs to pay overs to get who they want.

I don't think there is really enough money in rugby for it to work.