Reds 2020

[Jimmy_Crouch]

I didn't see enough of him in QPR or NRC to get a good read. I know he played Fijian u20s for a few years, had some time with the Rebels and played at a couple of Dewar clubs (won player of the year) before coming up here. Generally those type of players need two full years in full time programs to get the the body/gym right.

 

[Bobby Sands]

I didn't see enough of him in QPR or NRC to get a good read. I know he played Fijian u20s for a few years, had some time with the Rebels and played at a couple of Dewar clubs (won player of the year) before coming up here. Generally those type of players need two full years in full time programs to get the the body/gym right.

Hes good and I think he could be very good when he is professionally hardened. Plays very differently to traditional Australian backrowers without shirking the tight stuff.

 

[TSR]

An article on Thorn and has allegiance to Qld. In the modern day loyalty is a rare commodity - but I hope we do see a pick up in results this year or he might find it’s rarely a two way street in professional sport (well - I’m sure he already knows that - but I hope he doesn’t get a painful reminder). I’m a big fan of what he has done - but his tenure from here needs to be supported by on field success.

https://www.rugby.com.au/news/2020/01/03/super-rugby-reds-thorn-kiwi

Reading the article also made me reflect back in his three ‘players to watch’. I note that his mention of Zander was met with some healthy scepticism. I am in no position to challenge that but I am glad that Thorn seems as committed to bringing through some of the best prospects from Premier Rugby. We still struggle for depth compared to our Kiwi & SA rivals and this seems particularly the case in the front row. If we happen to have an injury crisis in the front row like we had in the outside backs, where we lose 3-4 of our front line players I’d like to know that the next cabs off the rank aren’t just promising youngsters or club journey men who are being completely thrown to the wolves. Our 6th or 7th best prop are never going to be game breakers, but hopefully we will have squad players who can at least come off the bench and get through without being demolished.

 

[Bobby Sands]

I just can’t imagine who would be better placed to replace him. I want results now, but I’m also backing him if they don’t come. He’s barely a coach - he’s rebuilding the entire organisation.

 

[TSR]

Understand what you are saying. I agree he deserves credit for being prepared to do the hard things that needed to be done. Whether he got everything 100% right is debatable for many I’m sure, but I think he deserves to be commended for taking it on.

I also think he’s achieved plenty in coaching terms if we look at the development of some of the young guys under his tutelage and also the way in which he has assembled a quality coaching group and structure around him.

Expectations of better results prior to this were probably naive. I feel that if we hadn’t had the injuries we had in the outside backs last year we would have been likely to end a few spots further up the ladder - but then I’m sure every team could mount that case to some degree. At the end of the day results are the thing that are measured above all.

The things that remain questionable to me with the Reds are -
- is Thorn tactically astute enough to design and implement a winning game plan
- can he remove the discipline & workrate issues (particularly in defence and on kick chase) which have cost is dearly for a long time now
- do we have the game breakers in the halves to match it with the best
- do we have the depth to cope when injuries invariably strike. (Certainly I think we’ve improved considerably in this area and Thorn has been influential).

If he fails to get results this year and/or next I think he will still be largely respected but there will be question around his fit as a head coach. If he does gets results then his reputation as a coach will probably exceed even his formidable reputation as a player, particularly if our pathways prove to have been repositioned for long term success.

 

[Bobby Sands]

If he fails to get results this year and/or next I think he will still be largely respected but there will be question around his fit as a head coach. If he does gets results then his reputation as a coach will probably exceed even his formidable reputation as a player, particularly if our pathways prove to have been repositioned for long term success.

I think we are reading off the same hymn sheet here, but with regards to the first scenario and he has a mid table finish. Pushing past the professional sport cliches, ie "he needs to win in his third year" or "professional sport is cut-throat" which are more of less true, yet the fact remains that someone will need to replace him - I just can't imagine who will be available that would be better suited.

I agree with the second scenario though - if he gets this group to purr, a group he began working with in U20s - the legend will start to grow that he is the rugby god.

 

[Ignoto]

The 2020 season has the 2010 vibe written all over it in my eyes. A pass mark next year is win more games then we lose. Making the finals would be the cream and winning the comp, the absolute cherry.

 

[dru]

In my eyes the last 2 years Thorn was a journeyman. That 3year thing to prove yourself starts 2020.

And he does have to start proving things. For me his ability to manage big name players is a big problem. But he has invested in youth well and has them lined up

I think he’s going to do well but the comparison to 2010 is unfortunate. That said it’s hard to miss the vibe. Let it prove true.

 

[Adam84]

I’m a Thorn supporter, but he has to improve the Reds win rate this year or be shown the door. The 6 wins in 2018 and 2019 need to be improved on, he has had the time now to establish the team and culture, now he needs results.

I agree from the outside the culture seems positive, as reflected by the number of players recommitting long term, now that ‘culture’ needs to start paying on-field benefits.

Looking at the ins and outs form the Super Rugby teams, I think below is a fairly reasonable goal of 10 wins for the season.

Rd 1 v Brumbies (A) - Loss
Rd 2 v Lions (A)- Win
Rd 3 v Jaguares (A) - Loss
Rd 4 v Sunwolves (H) - Win
Rd 5 v Sharks (H) - Win
Rd 6 v Crusaders (A) - Loss
Rd 7 v Bulls (H) - Win
Bye
Rd 9 v Brumbies (H) - Win
Rd 10 v Sunwolves (A) - Win
Rd 11 v Rebels (H) - Win
Rd 12 v Waratahs (A) - Win
Rd 13 v Highlanders (H) - Win
Bye
Rd 15 v Blues (A) - Loss
Rd 16 v Waratahs (H) - Win
Rd 17 v Hurricanes (H) - Loss
Rd 18 v Rebels (A) - Loss

 

[Brumby Runner]

Eleven wins will go close to topping the table for the competition as a whole.

 

[Jets]

In my eyes the team need to make the finals this year. It's a 15 team comp with 8 making the finals so it's not unrealistic for it to happen. I have questioned Thorn's ability as a coach from the start. He needs to win games, that is a key role for a coach.

As for a replacement, hopefully we make the finals and one isn't needed, one can be found. There are guys OS who could come back. Even at home a guy like Gilmore with the U20's in making a case he's a quality coach, personally I'd like him to stay with the 20's and build on last year for a few more. You don't not replace someone because of a void in replacements, you just look harder.

 

[TSR]

Gilmore is shaping up as a quality coach. Am I right thought that his coaching has mostly been around junior development and pathways.

I wonder if he’d benefit from a period as an assistant with a senior professional squad first? It’s a question as much as a statement as I’ve never met the guy or had any involvement with him personally. Clearly he’s done a good job in the roles he’s held.

 

[Sully]

Fuck me. How'd we get in this situation? By sacking coaches all the time. Your idea to fix it is sack more coaches.

 

[Adam84]

I think 3 years tenure is a more then reasonable timeframe for a coach to have a noticeable improvement on the team. 2020 will be Thorns 3rd year, I want him to succeed, but the reality is that if the results aren't seen in 2020 then he will probably be moved on.

At the very least if that were to happen, I think he will leave a solid legacy and squad for the next coach to inherit.

 

[Bobby Sands]

Fuck me. How'd we get in this situation? By sacking coaches all the time. Your idea to fix it is sack more coaches.

Thorn isn’t getting sacked & Jason isn’t going to be head coach of the Reds anytime soon.

We’ve stepped into January cabin fever territory here.

 

[dru]

Fuck me. How'd we get in this situation? By sacking coaches all the time. Your idea to fix it is sack more coaches.

Actually I thought we held on to several non-performing HCs for way too long. No one should be considering chopping Thorn at this juncture, but his appointment was premature, but has now had sufficient introduction and now must present wins.

 

[Adam84]

Actually I thought we held on to several non-performing HCs for way too long. No one should be considering chopping Thorn at this juncture, but his appointment was premature, but has now had sufficient introduction and now must present wins.

absolutely, Richard Graham in particular should never have been selected as a head coach, but then to follow that up he should never have stayed in charge as long as he did.

Its not un unreasonable to have some form of metric or KPI to measure a coaches success off or set benchmarks against for the season ahead.

 

[TSR]

To be clear on my posts -
- I’m feeling pretty positive about our outlook for this year and I am overall a big supporter of what Thorn has done. I’m keen to see him kick on, not be replaced. I think there are clear areas for improvement but I’m happy to see things play out.
- I don’t have a black and white criteria for what the outcome of this season should be. For me our halves are still very young and inexperienced and I feel that will hold us back. I don’t blame Thorn for that
- I don’t see Gilmore as a likely HC option in the short term, either for the Reds or anyone else. I do think he deserves a lot of credit for what he has achieved though and he seems very much headed down the right path

 

[Sully]

We are two years into what everyone thought was a five year experiment. It's way too early to be talking about sacking someone who is clearly rebuilding not only reds rugby but Qld rugby in general.

 

[Adam84]

Sorry Sully, I don’t agree that it was ever a 5 year experiment, nor should it have been, the QRU simply can’t afford to wait that long for an improvement in results.

I really like Thorn, but if the results at the end of 2020 aren’t at least an improvement on 2019, it’s going to be pretty hard for the QRU to extend him again. No one is saying sack him now, just discussing the expectations of success and KPIs for the upcoming season.