Reds 2019

[dru]

If it is/was true I see it as being very possible that the same players knew they couldn’t get away with that with Cheika. I’ve seen that sort of behaviour plenty of times before.

And yet Cheika quoted Rodda and another Red (can't remember who) as showing genuine work ethic that rubbed off on others - and credited Thorn for this.

So we find ways to credit the Reds HC. Even if they can be self contradictory.

In the mean time:
x sporadic results on the field
x poor results off the field
x a trashed squad list at end of season with an unproven ability to hold players
x $ on the side line
x new talent not interested

I say again THERE IS A PROBLEM. Might not be Thorn though it seems improbable that he shoulders no responsibility. There is a definite issue around CEO (there isn't one). And there is apparently no-one there to hold Thorn to account.

We can walk around the elephant in the room as much as we like, this does not remove it.

 

[Braveheart81]

And yet Cheika quoted Rodda and another Red (can't remember who) as showing genuine work ethic that rubbed off on others - and credited Thorn for this.

So we find ways to credit the Reds HC. Even if they can be self contradictory.

In the mean time:
x sporadic results on the field
x poor results off the field
x a trashed squad list at end of season with an unproven ability to hold players
x $ on the side line
x new talent not interested

I say again THERE IS A PROBLEM. Might not be Thorn though it seems improbable that he shoulders no responsibility. There is a definite issue around CEO (there isn't one). And there is apparently no-one there to hold Thorn to account.

We can walk around the elephant in the room as much as we like, this does not remove it.

It's impossible to know that Thorn doesn't have the full backing of the QRU to do what he's doing.

I don't believe that Cooper, Hunt and Slipper would be sitting on the sideline with Thorn still coach if he wasn't supported in that decision. I'm sure they'd be wanting to move those players on so they didn't have to continue paying them but I'd be surprised if they walk back on that decision.

 

[TSR]

And yet Cheika quoted Rodda and another Red (can't remember who) as showing genuine work ethic that rubbed off on others - and credited Thorn for this.

So we find ways to credit the Reds HC. Even if they can be self contradictory.

In the mean time:
x sporadic results on the field
x poor results off the field
x a trashed squad list at end of season with an unproven ability to hold players
x $ on the side line
x new talent not interested

I say again THERE IS A PROBLEM. Might not be Thorn though it seems improbable that he shoulders no responsibility. There is a definite issue around CEO (there isn't one). And there is apparently no-one there to hold Thorn to account.

We can walk around the elephant in the room as much as we like, this does not remove it.

To be clear - I’m not suggesting there isn’t a problem. There clearly is.

 

[dru]

It's impossible to know that Thorn doesn't have the full backing of the QRU to do what he's doing.

I don't believe that Cooper, Hunt and Slipper would be sitting on the sideline with Thorn still coach if he wasn't supported in that decision. I'm sure they'd be wanting to move those players on so they didn't have to continue paying them but I'd be surprised if they walk back on that decision.

Don't agree, unless the issue is historical. QRU spends a fortune on players, then appoints an HC who wont use them. Chair has changed but not much else. As you say though Thorn may have the QRU backing (but not the backing of the CEO as there isnt one) which means the problem is QRU.

Look it's also possible that Thorn is completely the right bloke, very much largely doing the right thing - but is being let down by the absence of a guiding CEO.

I'm not going to go over the issues again - but Quade/Hunt/Slipper is not an holistic account of the issues.

 

[Braveheart81]

Don't agree, unless the issue is historical. QRU spends a fortune on players, then appoints an HC who wont use them. Chair has changed but not much else. As you say though Thorn may have the QRU backing (but not the backing of the CEO as there isnt one) which means the problem is QRU.

Look it's also possible that Thorn is completely the right bloke, very much largely doing the right thing - but is being let down by the absence of a guiding CEO.

I'm not going to go over the issues again - but Quade/Hunt/Slipper is not an holistic account of the issues.

My guess is they would have known at the time of Thorn's appointment that Cooper wouldn't be used.

They did not know the situation with Hunt offending again and Slipper at that point in time but my guess is they support his decision.

Thorn did pick Slipper before his cocaine issue surfaced. Presumably he would have picked Hunt too. Hunt was certainly not on the outer in the preseason.

 

[dru]

My guess is they would have known at the time of Thorn's appointment that Cooper wouldn't be used.

They did not know the situation with Hunt offending again and Slipper at that point in time but my guess is they support his decision.

Thorn did pick Slipper before his cocaine issue surfaced. Presumably he would have picked Hunt too. Hunt was certainly not on the outer in the preseason.

BH yes that's true that they may have known at the time of Thorn's appointment. This just shifts the problem to the QRU. And they may not. Thorn isnt responsible for Hunt reoffending nor Slipper offending, but he is apparently responsible for the puritanical policy that will leave even Slipper not playing.

And we still have the issue of the current squad and reported pending player departures. And certain big names widely reported as wanting to return to Qld but not after looking into it further. This also may be Thorn (culture) or not Thorn (QRU $) Both are a problem.

 

[Braveheart81]

I'm not trying to argue that Thorn is making the right decision nor the QRU is in supporting those decisions.

I just don't think that painting it as the QRU having a coach that is going against their wishes is likely to be accurate.

 

[Bobby Sands]

I was only making a point that those who did not want to work hard were already left behind by Brad at the beginning. Nothing else. You cant take away from him that he sticks to his principles and players. Most of them are his "projects" as he called them in one if his interview came from U20 and Country teams. I guess those currently on the outer will have to make decision sooner or later.

100%. You can't ask for higher standards, and then bash the bloke for actually enforcing them and not just paying lip service.

Ready is a great example of a bloke who copped his whack, went back to club rugby and is now a better player for taking his medicine.

I see a lot of abstract finger pointing in here, but what are some proposed solutions other than "the QRU are stuffed?"

I'll catch you all again in a few years, go Richmond.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

My guess is they would have known at the time of Thorn's appointment that Cooper wouldn't be used.

They did not know the situation with Hunt offending again and Slipper at that point in time but my guess is they support his decision.

Thorn did pick Slipper before his cocaine issue surfaced. Presumably he would have picked Hunt too. Hunt was certainly not on the outer in the preseason.

Thorn made a big call on Quade because he did not fit in with his plans. I bet most expected him to move on quickly but has not happened. Thorn believed Quade rightly or wrongly was not right for what he wanted. I actually respect that he backed himself and maybe it was not the right decision but it was the right decision for thorn so he made it.

Same on drugs thing which i don’t agree with but equally respect his right to make that call as can see hardly black or white issue.


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[dru]

I'm not trying to argue that Thorn is making the right decision nor the QRU is in supporting those decisions.

I just don't think that painting it as the QRU having a coach that is going against their wishes is likely to be accurate.

QRU invested $$$ in Quade on a three year deal. Do we really think they did this on the basis of him working only 1 of those 3 years? There is a clear dysfunction between the elements of QRU that purchased Quade and Thorn's actions setting him aside.


Each step may have seen changes from the QRU that a) supported the purchase of Quade; and b) supported Thorn in Quade's removal. That also is dysfunctional and also commercially irresponsible.

No doubt the treatment of Hunt met little resistance at HQ, actions on Slipper to date basically mirror the required penalties and sanctions - nothing for QRU to object to. The issue comes in trying to get some value out of that diverted investment, some squandered by Thorn, some by irresponsible players. It doesn't matter, QRU must surely be trying to limit the commercial loss across those three. All three.

The policy from Thorn not allowing Slipper a second chance is ethically extreme. And poor business imo. The result, without careful handling through operations (CEO), if not the Board, is a massive commercial problem, that in itself surely can't be supported.

No doubt HQ has supported Thorn in his tough stance "culture" - as a generic support. Now we have specifics where sensible commercial and operational management must surely over-ride Thorn's puritanism or solve the matter more directly (finding ways to move the players without losing excessive $).

And then we have the diaspora + lack of incoming talent.

All in all if Reds operations and the Board do support Thorn then they are the problem. That statement shouldn't be read as a polemic either, what I mean is that if the QRU supports Thorn 100% without exception, there is a problem. There are certain specifics here that the QRU simply must act on.

To me it simply reads as support for Thorn's "culture" change management, with dubious issues around the treatment of Quade, now expanded to Hunt and Slipper and from there to the whole player group - indeed the potential player group. At that point the impact of the culture change, though much of these ramifications have been unexpected, is an overstep (by Thorn). But the assumption of managerial entitlement to behave this way (again presumed to be a little unexpected) appears to have been unchallenged as the acting CEO will not feel like resolving the matter and was anyway in place during the previous decission making we are discussing.

There is a culture problem at the Reds. Likely (but not guaranteed to be) starting with Thorn, and certainly in amongst HQ and the operations team.

 

[Derpus]

QRU invested $$$ in Quade on a three year deal. Do we really think they did this on the basis of him working only 1 of those 3 years? There is a clear dysfunction between the elements of QRU that purchased Quade and Thorn's actions setting him aside.

Not initially, but after what could only described as an abysmal first year, they probably realized that they had paid way over the odds for a past it player. The mistake had already been made in singing him. You only compound the mistake by forcing him to play when he's not up to it.

Pretty sure the QRU could force Thorne's hand if they really really wanted Quade back in the team. Just don't see why that would be at all likely.

 

[dru]

I see a lot of abstract finger pointing in here, but what are some proposed solutions other than "the QRU are stuffed?"

Hardly abstract.

It's tricky to outline a set of actions looking in from afar and without knowledge of personalities and internal politics. Still:

1. Kerevi and other potential leavers need to be take asaide, not by Thorn, and told, "look it's messy but things are happening. Can you give us to the end of November?"

2. Let's hope that the CEO is already appointed with announcement in the offing (apparently October). Let's hope he/she has brass knuckles and is willing to be firm in front of Thorn. Otherwise the CEO appointment seriously needs expediting.
3. Thorn needs to be directed to to protect the investments of the QRU, including historical investments that Thorn doesnt agree with (and it is claimed that the current QRU supports).
4. This much IS happening - get the maligned three back playing rugby. Either in preparation for the next point or to shore up commercial value going forward.
5. Bring Quade and Slipper back into the player group. Coach decides who does and doesn't play (though not based on past indiscretions), but get them back in. Quade wont make the team at the moment but Slipper will in time.
6. Ditto Hunt, but I'd understand this being a point too far. So actively engage in assisting him in a transition. If Quade can be talked around you could do the same there.
7. Back to the diaspora "right the plan is hatching you need to reconsider and stay".
8. Thorn needs plenty of time - give to him. He also needs guidance and direction - give it to him.

If Thorn won't bend he can find another job.

 

[kiap]

2. Let's hope that the CEO is already appointed with announcement in the offing (apparently October). Let's hope he/she has brass knuckles and is willing to be firm in front of Thorn.

LOL

QRU invested $$$ in Quade on a three year deal. Do we really think they did this on the basis of him working only 1 of those 3 years? There is a clear dysfunction between the elements of QRU that purchased Quade and Thorn's actions setting him aside.

QRU should have done their homework instead of agreeing that deal. There is no way Quade was worth that money -- even when was playing in year 1. The real crying here is not over QC (Quade Cooper) being off the field. It's the money they're paying him.

Forget about Hunt. The reality is he's done. The Reds need to be focusing on players like:
Petaia
Rodda
BPA
JP Smith
Liam Wright
Kerevi
McDermott / Sorovi

Of course Lukhan Tui would be at the top of that list, but he's already signed.

Kerevi has been made an offer and wants more. It will be a blow if they can't keep negotiating to keep him, but that's rugby. They need to make sure Petaia is signed.

My guess is that both Tui and Kerevi will be wearing red next year.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I could understand if Quade had a stellar season prior to Thorns arrival but he didn’t and in fact was aweful and really never been the player he was back in 2011.

Too many holding onto what a player was like nearly 7 years ago and ignoring when he played full season after returning from France he was rubbish.


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[Derpus]

Tui, Kerevi, Rodda, Tupou, Petaia, Sorovi, BPA, Perese.

That's the core of a decent Super side right there.

 

[Derpus]

I could understand if Quade had a stellar season prior to Thorns arrival but he didn’t and in fact was aweful and really never been the player he was back in 2011.

Too many holding onto what a player was like nearly 7 years ago and ignoring when he played full season after returning from France he was rubbish.


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It is a testament to just how good he was that one year that no one can let it go, come to think of it.

 

[Dctarget]

Looks like Kerevi is going to finish his contract and stay for 2019. Great news.
https://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/...y/news-story/332622048a2beb99347b205ba3292677

 

[Beer Baron]

I could understand if Quade had a stellar season prior to Thorns arrival but he didn’t and in fact was aweful and really never been the player he was back in 2011.

Too many holding onto what a player was like nearly 7 years ago and ignoring when he played full season after returning from France he was rubbish.


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Agreed X lots. In all the Cooper talk here, there is no reference to the fact he hasn't set QPR alight and failed in all facets he used to fail in. Every other core red/wob stands out in QPR for a whole game. Not glimpses. Check the QPR thread.

Let it/him go.

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[Beer Baron]

Agreed X lots. In all the Cooper talk here, there is no reference to the fact he hasn't set QPR alight and failed in all facets he used to fail in. Every other core red/wob stands out in QPR for a whole game. Not glimpses. Check the QPR thread.

Let it/him go.

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If he was so valuable surely we would have heard that a club was after him??

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[Slim 293]

If he was so valuable surely we would have heard that a club was after him??

We did, and there were....... Quade didn't want to leave Queensland.