dru
David Wilson (68)
Yes but not ever so nearly silent as QRU itself.
Reds 2018
- Thread starter The torpedo
- Start date
- Status
Yes but not ever so nearly silent as QRU itself.
liquor box
Peter Sullivan (51)
I hope both QC (Quade Cooper) and Pickle play for the Sunwolves. With Quirk already there I would be sure to follow them a lot more than in the past.
I think they could even be a smokey to come 4th in conference next season.
I think they could even be a smokey to come 4th in conference next season.
hammertimethere
Trevor Allan (34)
The fucking head scratching elements here are that;
a) Thorn doesn’t run the QRU, he is the Reds head coach. Given the significant negatives to canning QC (Quade Cooper) with 2 years to run and over a million dollars to pay who the fuck at the QRU would approve such a decision after weighing up the risks and benefits? Surely just a word to QC (Quade Cooper) that he is in a damn big fight for his spot, then allow him to seek a release when or if he doesn’t get much game time based on how he responds?
b) What would lead Thorn to make such a concrete, public decision so at such an inopportune time? Could there really be such a night and day difference between how QC (Quade Cooper) presents himself publicly and what really goes on at Ballymore (in terms of cultural influence)? Because literally every impression given since Quade signed to return has been that he really loves playing for Queensland, desperately wants the Reds to succeed and gets on well with his teammates! I know he was a bit of a brat as a young fella but could he possibly be that different in private?!
a) Thorn doesn’t run the QRU, he is the Reds head coach. Given the significant negatives to canning QC (Quade Cooper) with 2 years to run and over a million dollars to pay who the fuck at the QRU would approve such a decision after weighing up the risks and benefits? Surely just a word to QC (Quade Cooper) that he is in a damn big fight for his spot, then allow him to seek a release when or if he doesn’t get much game time based on how he responds?
b) What would lead Thorn to make such a concrete, public decision so at such an inopportune time? Could there really be such a night and day difference between how QC (Quade Cooper) presents himself publicly and what really goes on at Ballymore (in terms of cultural influence)? Because literally every impression given since Quade signed to return has been that he really loves playing for Queensland, desperately wants the Reds to succeed and gets on well with his teammates! I know he was a bit of a brat as a young fella but could he possibly be that different in private?!
amirite
Chilla Wilson (44)
I take issue with the narrative that's evolving that scrapping Quade was ridiculous (without pointing fingers at anyone specifically).
I think Thorn just wanted culture change and it's incredibly difficult to do that. So he made a huge attention grabbing call that would -
1. Accelerate the change he wanted to see (more young guys singing from his song sheet).
2. Tell other people nobody is above his law.
The QRU let it happen because -
1. They're all in on Thorn and are backing him 100%.
2. They know as much as flicking Quade shits fans off, if the Reds are winning there'll be more bums on seats and it'll create more plays that have 'Quade' type fame anyway. They believe the Reds will win because of the point above.
Ultimately, in time we'll judge this call on the outcome. No doubt it was shitty the way it was done, but if they end up winning it'll be "the harsh call that had to happen" and if they lose he'll just look like a belligerent dick.
Good on people for not half-assing the implementation of change which only leads to half-ass outcomes. At least this way the Reds will either be really shit or really good by 2019.
I think Thorn just wanted culture change and it's incredibly difficult to do that. So he made a huge attention grabbing call that would -
1. Accelerate the change he wanted to see (more young guys singing from his song sheet).
2. Tell other people nobody is above his law.
The QRU let it happen because -
1. They're all in on Thorn and are backing him 100%.
2. They know as much as flicking Quade shits fans off, if the Reds are winning there'll be more bums on seats and it'll create more plays that have 'Quade' type fame anyway. They believe the Reds will win because of the point above.
Ultimately, in time we'll judge this call on the outcome. No doubt it was shitty the way it was done, but if they end up winning it'll be "the harsh call that had to happen" and if they lose he'll just look like a belligerent dick.
Good on people for not half-assing the implementation of change which only leads to half-ass outcomes. At least this way the Reds will either be really shit or really good by 2019.
USARugger
John Thornett (49)
Yeah, nah. There's no "narrative" and the only thing more ridiculous than the decision itself was the manner and timeframe in which it was carried out.
The most positive outcome to this scenario is that we go into the season with paper-thin depth across the entire back line. One guy going down means we're reshuffling most of the backline and bringing guys like Maranta into starting positions. We're going to likely be paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for this incredible privilege when the coffers are already full of spiderwebs. It was a rash, belligerent decision made in lieu of any even medium-term thinking regarding either the rugby or business half of the coin. At best, it was an emotional decision that has about a 99% chance of coming back to bite this Red's team in the ass over the course of this Super season.
The most positive outcome to this scenario is that we go into the season with paper-thin depth across the entire back line. One guy going down means we're reshuffling most of the backline and bringing guys like Maranta into starting positions. We're going to likely be paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for this incredible privilege when the coffers are already full of spiderwebs. It was a rash, belligerent decision made in lieu of any even medium-term thinking regarding either the rugby or business half of the coin. At best, it was an emotional decision that has about a 99% chance of coming back to bite this Red's team in the ass over the course of this Super season.
jimmydubs
Dave Cowper (27)
That whole narrative relies on Quade being bad for the Reds culture.
What have you based that on, rarelyrite?
duckbill
Ward Prentice (10)
Agree 100%
The continued silence from the Reds is a poor attempt to hope this goes away. If there was any logic they would have tried to justify this, but the more I look at this the more it appears as an amateur attempt by Thorn that probably blindsided a lot of people in the QRU.
amirite
Chilla Wilson (44)
Firstly, a pun on a username is not clever when that's already the joke of the username.
Secondly, I didn't say Quade was bad for Reds culture or that it was good for the Reds, I merely explained a rationale and said this rationale will be prove right or wrong based on outcomes.
In fact, the reaction to my post kind of proves my point, does it not? Whether you agree or disagree, this decision was made to achieve change.
dru
David Wilson (68)
Both your language and tone implied this emphatically.
It should also be obvious that your attempt to reframe “the narrative” is something that many here will take issue with.
Whatever the claimed positives - culture etc - timing, commercial nous, respect are all things that Thorn has missed here and QRU are resoundingly culpable in their silence.
amirite
Chilla Wilson (44)
In every post I said it was badly handled and shared no views about Quade specifically. I think he just doesn't mesh with the age profile Thorns going for, it's that simple. If the Reds peak in 2020 lets say, I can't see Quade being a better player then than he is now, and even now he's not his best.
This whole 'age profile' 'roster building' mentality is not really a rugby thing (it's big in American sport) but it's something worth thinking about.
To be honest, I think when people try to read between the lines on a conflicting viewpoint sometimes people project stuff that isn't there.
Parse
Bill Watson (15)
I'm no expert but from what I have seen with Super Rugby is that success comes from teams that are well coached and the obvious example to this is when Link coached the Reds. Link is/was a pragmatist, he worked with the players and the skills they had and coached and formulated his game plan around that. He didn't try and mould them into something they were not, he didn't try to make them play a style they were not good at either individually or as a team.
What we have seen since is other coaches come along and try and get the team to play how they think and develop the skills they think they should have. This has meant the Reds have ended up near the bottom of the table. My concern now with Thorn is that he is showing the same signs of these recent times. I just wonder if half way through next year when the roster is being resigned/recruited these forums don't again become "Well he is a new coach and he needs to have the players he wants to be successful". Heard that too many times.
What we have seen since is other coaches come along and try and get the team to play how they think and develop the skills they think they should have. This has meant the Reds have ended up near the bottom of the table. My concern now with Thorn is that he is showing the same signs of these recent times. I just wonder if half way through next year when the roster is being resigned/recruited these forums don't again become "Well he is a new coach and he needs to have the players he wants to be successful". Heard that too many times.
I don't think it's about culture with Quade, I think it's about how he becomes the central figure to the game plan for any team that he is part of and like some other coaches before him, that isn't the direction Thorn wants to take.
I think Thorn wants a 10 that can get his team around the park, make his tackles and not make a lot of errors and bank on the fact that his team from numbers 1-23 can get the job done.
Cooper at his best can conjure a win when most of his team are pretty poor. At his worst though he can be detrimental to a good team performance around him. Over the last few years those brilliant performances have also been rarer and rarer.
This to me is about Thorn not wanting to have his team heavily based around the way Cooper plays so he is opting to not pick him rather than try and make him play a way that doesn't suit him.
I think Thorn wants a 10 that can get his team around the park, make his tackles and not make a lot of errors and bank on the fact that his team from numbers 1-23 can get the job done.
Cooper at his best can conjure a win when most of his team are pretty poor. At his worst though he can be detrimental to a good team performance around him. Over the last few years those brilliant performances have also been rarer and rarer.
This to me is about Thorn not wanting to have his team heavily based around the way Cooper plays so he is opting to not pick him rather than try and make him play a way that doesn't suit him.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
Quade is a brilliant individual. He is at his best when he is surrounded by players he knows, and who know him. He does things that I have never seen another player attempt, let alone achieve.
But my guess is that whoever coaches him has to forget about trying to fit him into a game plan, the game plan would have to be tailored to suit Quade's unique style.
So it does not really surprise me that a novice coach who has a lot to prove might think that it might be a bit easier to work with players who are more amenable to being coached.
Which is more or less what Braveheart just said. This is a double post, by two different people.
But my guess is that whoever coaches him has to forget about trying to fit him into a game plan, the game plan would have to be tailored to suit Quade's unique style.
So it does not really surprise me that a novice coach who has a lot to prove might think that it might be a bit easier to work with players who are more amenable to being coached.
Which is more or less what Braveheart just said. This is a double post, by two different people.
Ben Smith
Frank Nicholson (4)
Thorn's bold moves are based on re-building long-term but unfortunately, he won't probably won't be around to see the end results.
To understand Thorn's perspective, here is a guy who has been apart of numerous successful organizations: Crusaders, All Blacks, Broncos. He is an outsider who holds no sentimental value to heroes of the past in Queensland. The one thing above all he wants to bring is a new culture regardless of whether the existing one is positive or guys like Quade could fit in.
Since 2010, all the Super rugby clubs have won with a flyhalf between 23-26 years old. Even Dan Carter won his last title at 26 in 2008 despite playing to 33. Quade is still able, but history shows the odds are against him of winning. And this is what Thorn will be striving for. Winning titles, not being 'competitive'.
Rightly or wrongly, he is taking the 'blow it up and start again' approach. He will be looking to build a team to be competitive in 3-4 years, and give young players time to develop and figure things out.
The current landscape of Super Rugby has the NZ sides daylight ahead of anyone else, due to in part, the long-term approach. The Hurricanes are in the championship window now because they invested time in the spine; Dane Coles, TJ Perenara, Beauden Barrett, 6 or so years ago when they were 20-21 year olds and moved on a more than capable senior player in Ma'a Nonu who they thought would be disruptive, despite being an All Black. They didn't win consistently but played attacking rugby and the players developed maturity as they went.
The Crusaders failed to get a title on the back-end of Carter's career despite a few finals, and after only a season or two under a 23-year-old Richie Mo'unga they hit paydirt. Super Rugby is a young 10s game.
I'm sure Thorn will be looking at the 2-3 premier NZ franchises and thinking we arn't close now, but we might build to something when their reign is on way down.
Thorn wants a young spine to build around, and hopefully take a group through to championship mode. He can't do that with a 29-year-old Cooper.
The Reds have missed the boat on a number of talented flyhalves in the last few years, McIntyre was just poor talent identification, but Greene and Mason could've been the ones to build a future around. I wouldn't be surprised to see Thorn try and lure Mason back, he's young enough and was Thorn's Reds u20s pivot. However, Stewart is capable too and his timing couldn't be better.
Thorn has seen enough of his skillset to know where he could be at 24-25. Despite being 19 years old, Thorn will know that if he keeps a core together they will grow.
Hopefully Thorn's approach has buy-in from management. Cordingley's signing sprees have to stop. The poor contracting decisions with a short-term approach will disrupt everything. Every off-season hope is renewed because a 'big name' is coming in. It hasn't worked once. Thorn is kinda stamping his mark now in a way saying to Cordingley you better work with me because I'm the captain of this ship now.
Everyone needs to get on the same page, otherwise Thorn will get sacked and it will be all for nothing, but Thorn's approach is right. He's not looking to win much in 2018, as he is thinking bigger than that.
To understand Thorn's perspective, here is a guy who has been apart of numerous successful organizations: Crusaders, All Blacks, Broncos. He is an outsider who holds no sentimental value to heroes of the past in Queensland. The one thing above all he wants to bring is a new culture regardless of whether the existing one is positive or guys like Quade could fit in.
Since 2010, all the Super rugby clubs have won with a flyhalf between 23-26 years old. Even Dan Carter won his last title at 26 in 2008 despite playing to 33. Quade is still able, but history shows the odds are against him of winning. And this is what Thorn will be striving for. Winning titles, not being 'competitive'.
Rightly or wrongly, he is taking the 'blow it up and start again' approach. He will be looking to build a team to be competitive in 3-4 years, and give young players time to develop and figure things out.
The current landscape of Super Rugby has the NZ sides daylight ahead of anyone else, due to in part, the long-term approach. The Hurricanes are in the championship window now because they invested time in the spine; Dane Coles, TJ Perenara, Beauden Barrett, 6 or so years ago when they were 20-21 year olds and moved on a more than capable senior player in Ma'a Nonu who they thought would be disruptive, despite being an All Black. They didn't win consistently but played attacking rugby and the players developed maturity as they went.
The Crusaders failed to get a title on the back-end of Carter's career despite a few finals, and after only a season or two under a 23-year-old Richie Mo'unga they hit paydirt. Super Rugby is a young 10s game.
I'm sure Thorn will be looking at the 2-3 premier NZ franchises and thinking we arn't close now, but we might build to something when their reign is on way down.
Thorn wants a young spine to build around, and hopefully take a group through to championship mode. He can't do that with a 29-year-old Cooper.
The Reds have missed the boat on a number of talented flyhalves in the last few years, McIntyre was just poor talent identification, but Greene and Mason could've been the ones to build a future around. I wouldn't be surprised to see Thorn try and lure Mason back, he's young enough and was Thorn's Reds u20s pivot. However, Stewart is capable too and his timing couldn't be better.
Thorn has seen enough of his skillset to know where he could be at 24-25. Despite being 19 years old, Thorn will know that if he keeps a core together they will grow.
Hopefully Thorn's approach has buy-in from management. Cordingley's signing sprees have to stop. The poor contracting decisions with a short-term approach will disrupt everything. Every off-season hope is renewed because a 'big name' is coming in. It hasn't worked once. Thorn is kinda stamping his mark now in a way saying to Cordingley you better work with me because I'm the captain of this ship now.
Everyone needs to get on the same page, otherwise Thorn will get sacked and it will be all for nothing, but Thorn's approach is right. He's not looking to win much in 2018, as he is thinking bigger than that.
Ignoto
Peter Sullivan (51)
Braveheart, Wamberal and co, I think the points you made/make are entirely valid and correct. It'd be pretty hard to go against any of the notions you put forward about why Thorn came to the conclusion he did.
My biggest gripe is, the predicament this now puts us in. We're unable to sign a player of Quade's potential calibre and we're solely reliant on Stewart. While it may be a blessing in disguise for us and Stewart to see what he's made of, it also means he needs to stay fit.
Looking at the 2012 season where we just burnt through fly halves like there was no tomorrow. So, if we discard Quade and Stewart goes down, we are absolutely screwed and that's my biggest fear, that our season could be over within the first 10 minutes of Game 1!
My biggest gripe is, the predicament this now puts us in. We're unable to sign a player of Quade's potential calibre and we're solely reliant on Stewart. While it may be a blessing in disguise for us and Stewart to see what he's made of, it also means he needs to stay fit.
Looking at the 2012 season where we just burnt through fly halves like there was no tomorrow. So, if we discard Quade and Stewart goes down, we are absolutely screwed and that's my biggest fear, that our season could be over within the first 10 minutes of Game 1!
No doubt at all the timing is terrible and it has put the Reds in a hole. Given all the negatives surrounding the decision there is every chance it just wasn't a decision that could reasonably made for 2018 and should have been delayed a season with the club looking to put everything they needed in place to make that transition happen more seamlessly before the 2019 season.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
not unless we sign a fullback
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