Reds 2017

[Butch21]

Who says there are no super rugby level coaches in Australia?? What is this based on? That they haven't coached at this level before? If only coaches with reputations and extensive experience at the same level were appointed, well there wouldn't be many coaches around surely?
Lucky Eddie Jones wasn't held to the same criteria when he was appointed to the Brumbies, he probably had the least experience of any Super Rugby Coach ever. Same with Nucifora, appointed with limited experience at that level. They both went on to become the most successful Super rugby coaches we have produced and then kicked on from there. There are many more. How about Australian coaches are given an opportunity? There are many Australian assistant Super rugby coaches in Australia, a dearth of Australian coaches currently overseas, National schoolboy coaches etc.. etc.. To say there are no Australian coaches around or worthy of their first Super Rugby start is bullshit. If we didn't give up and coming players a chance in selection, where would Australian rugby be, where would any rugby franchise be? Its the same with coaching, no wonder there are so many good aussie coaches overseas - look at the coaching set up in Aus Super rugby this year - two sth African assistants at the Force, NZ head coach at the Tahs, recently departed NZ backs coach at the Rebels. How many Aussie or foreign coaches are there in Super rugby NZ????? NONE.

 

[Braveheart81]

One issue with promoting coaches to their first head coaching gig is that Super Rugby is a pretty elite competition for that to happen in.

If that position is at a struggling team then it makes the challenge even greater.

There are a lot more pro teams overseas in lower level competitions than Super Rugby so it isn't surprising that a lot of Aussie coaches end up gaining a lot of their experience overseas.

 

[Scrubber2050]

There is plenty of them to work with

 

[Butch21]

One issue with promoting coaches to their first head coaching gig is that Super Rugby is a pretty elite competition for that to happen in.

If that position is at a struggling team then it makes the challenge even greater.

There are a lot more pro teams overseas in lower level competitions than Super Rugby so it isn't surprising that a lot of Aussie coaches end up gaining a lot of their experience overseas.

I see your point, however my point is that there are enough coaches serving assistant coach apprenticeships in Super rugby and others currently doing what you say overseas - so why aren't they getting promoted? For all the work and planning Australian rugby do in coach education and development, overseeing coaching appointments at Junior gold cup, schoolboys, 20s etc.. etc.. it suddenly stops at Super rugby level, they have zero influence in what happens in professional coaching at Super rugby level, maybe a bit more if they bail out a franchise like the Force. Personally I think there are enough coaches around, however many obviously believe there are not - surely we should be the best at maximising our coach development/opportunities through schoolboy - club- semi professional - super rugby to National level? It makes no sense.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Butch, it's because the vast majority of those assistants have been failures.

Graham - Failure.
Foley - Failure.
Hill - Failure.
Larkham - Team as regressed since he took over.
Gibson - Jury still out.

What assistant coaches have recently taken over and proven to be good choices?

 

[Ignoto]

Playing devils advocate here. If Australian coaches outside of the HC role have been so great, why have we time and time again seen players rise through the system with fundamental skills being non-existent?

Why did we spend the better part of a decade with a scrum that was a laughing stock? Why do we have issues with catch + passing. More recently, why do we have an issue kicking?

These have been issues we as armchair critics have picked up on. So it begs the question what are guys who are in permanent positions of power unable to either put systems in place to address these issues or demonstrate a willingness to fix them?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

One issue with promoting coaches to their first head coaching gig is that Super Rugby is a pretty elite competition for that to happen in.

If that position is at a struggling team then it makes the challenge even greater.

There are a lot more pro teams overseas in lower level competitions than Super Rugby so it isn't surprising that a lot of Aussie coaches end up gaining a lot of their experience overseas.

NRC should be helping develop potential Super HC's in the same way that it is helping bridge the gap between Club and Pro footy.

 

[Butch21]

Butch, it's because the vast majority of those assistants have been failures.

Graham - Failure.
Foley - Failure.
Hill - Failure.
Larkham - Team as regressed since he took over.
Gibson - Jury still out.

What assistant coaches have recently taken over and proven to be good choices?

As opposed to Lancaster who's demise is well documented? As opposed to Blackadder who has had an up and down tenure at Crusaders despite always having one of the best rosters? I agree that the mistake with Foley and Graham was to reappoint them at another province straight after spectacular failure at another, thats part of my issue - there was no external control over this. However John Mitchell ex All Black coach also failed at the Force with a much much better squad. Ideally a first year HC would be supported by experienced assistants, but again there are no processes to ensure this happens.
I would suggest Joe Schmidt would be a good example of an assistant who was promoted to Leinster HC and won. I would suggest Mark McCall is a good example of an assistant promoted to HC who is doing very very well at Saracens, winning everything. I would suggest Grigor Townsend who was promoted from assistant is doing well at Glasgow, winning the Pro 12 last year. In Australia I would suggest Tony McGhan who was assistant Wallabies is doing a good job at the Rebels. I would suggest Laurie Fisher was promoted as an assistant has had a good career, he is now in England. I would suggest Les Kiss who was assistant is doing a good job with Ulster as Director of Rugby etc.. etc..

It's easy to say that we shouldn't promote from within Australia because a few coaches have not succeeded as you mentioned above, as it is in citing positive examples elsewhere as I did above. Damien Hill went straight from Club Rugby at Syd Uni to Super Rugby HC, after doing a bit of stuff in japan. Link won at the Reds after being sacked at the Tahs. Jones won at the Brumbies in 2001 and moved to the Wallabies - his assistant Tom Barker was let go by the Brumbies the same year. Nucifora won at the Brumbies in 2004 and then was not reappointed, nor was his assistant coach.
The two years the Brumbies won super rugby, the head coach and assistant coaches were let go (except Jones who went to Wallabies) v two of the worst years in super rugby history at the Force and the Reds the HC and assistants were retained.
My point is the professional coaching landscape in Australia is a dogs breakfast- no direction, no plan, no system of development or support. Its luck of the draw. Australian rugby must find a way to address this issue or else forever more when there is an opportunity up for grabs the first place everyone looks is for a foreign coach.

 

[dru]

I'm actually getting enthused on behalf of both Reds and Force. Names being bandied around include:

Blackadder
O'Conner (suggested short list at Force)
Stiles
Fisher
Tayler
Meyer (more for Force than Reds)
Mulivihill
Lancaster

If the Reds list of 7 has many of these guys its a bloody decent result and plenty for the selection committee to run with. Previous "international search through the Ballymore car park" might suggest a Qld boys connection required.

Doesnt look like that right now!

OK guys, do well by us.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I have no real brief for or against Aussie born and bred coaches (I think Stiles has probably earned a guernsey after his NRC successes, and I think Blackadder would probably be a success where=ever he coached), but to use Nucifora as an example of a successful coach at the Brumbies in 2004 is a bit of a stretch. He lost the players during the season, and to all intents and purposes the team coached itself for the latter part leading to and including the championship. Otherwise, good examples both ways of successful and unsuccessful coaches coming through the Aus sides.

 

[TOCC]

anyone know what ever happened to Rod Davies?

http://www.qt.com.au/news/rocketing-to-stardom/3028698/

 

[Butch21]

I have no real brief for or against Aussie born and bred coaches (I think Stiles has probably earned a guernsey after his NRC successes, and I think Blackadder would probably be a success where=ever he coached), but to use Nucifora as an example of a successful coach at the Brumbies in 2004 is a bit of a stretch. He lost the players during the season, and to all intents and purposes the team coached itself for the latter part leading to and including the championship. Otherwise, good examples both ways of successful and unsuccessful coaches coming through the Aus sides.

To say Nucifora isn't a successful super coach is even more of a stretch. He lost the final to the Crusaders in Christchurch in 2002, he lost the semi to eventual winners the rampant Blues in Auckland in 2003 and won the title against the Crusaders in Canberra in 2004, he was also voted super coach of the year. I think that makes him a successful Super rugby coach. I think that makes him our most successful super rugby coach? To say the team coached themselves is a handy by-line by the small senior player clique he challenged and upset and who got rid of him, much the same as the Tahs senior player clique who got rid of Mckenzie at the Waratahs and Wallabies when he challenged and held them to account. This does not make Nucifora a bad coach, some would offer that sticking up for and enforcing the principles and standards of his organisation makes a good head coach.

 

[Jets]

Blackadder would be my pick of that bunch. Could see why they might be interested in Lancaster and wouldn't be overly upset if Stiles got the gig.

I'd be shocked if Fisher was in the running but also very happy if he was the coach.


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[Ash]

I stopped reading at "Nucifora". The guy is one of the worst coaches going around. History has pretty much shown that the Brumbies winning under Nucifora was an aberration. Look at what he did at the Blues and the Australian U20s. Our U20s had some of their best teams under Nucifora and they looked like a complete rabble.

I thought for a while that Nucifora being dumped was an abuse of Brumbies player power (and it damn well may have been) but in hindsight it was the right thing to do.

 

[Ash]

To say Nucifora isn't a successful super coach is even more of a stretch. He lost the final to the Crusaders in Christchurch in 2002, he lost the semi to eventual winners the rampant Blues in Auckland in 2003 and won the title against the Crusaders in Canberra in 2004, he was also voted super coach of the year. I think that makes him a successful Super rugby coach. I think that makes him our most successful super rugby coach? To say the team coached themselves is a handy by-line by the small senior player clique he challenged and upset and who got rid of him, much the same as the Tahs senior player clique who got rid of Mckenzie at the Waratahs and Wallabies when he challenged and held them to account. This does not make Nucifora a bad coach, some would offer that sticking up for and enforcing the principles and standards of his organisation makes a good head coach.

Remind me how Nucifora went at the Blues? Then with the U20s?

 

[liquor box]

After tonight's game I think Tongan Thor will definitely be a cult figure in the Reds team.

I am predicting screaming "Thor" chants when he gets the ball, similar to "Beast" chants in South Africa.

When running he looks exciting.

Very happy with the young guys on debut or close to debut. Still work to do but lots of potential.

Duncan needs the last two games at 10. Decisions need to be made for the future

 

[Gillys_ghost]

yeah a pretty exciting debut for Tupou. a great 1st touch, a pilfer, and a try. His Scrummaging wasnt too bad considering he was up against Sio and Ala'alatoa who have been around this level for a couple of years already. Hes certainly got a lot of improvement in him which is great since he already looks comfortable at this level. now he needs to back it up next week. Taefus goalkicking was pretty good as well, and Duncan was a mixed bag but i think our attack looked better with him out there.

 

[The torpedo]

Quade update:

It could be actually happening!!! (now hurry up and sign the reds deal)

 

[Butch21]

Great start for young Tupou, really glad the Reds let him develop and settle and not throw him into the deep end earlier, he didn't look out of place for a 20 yr old prop in his first game. He looked chuffed with his try, was great to see the look on his face.

 

[Joe Blow]

They really need to be chasing Link. Is there any chance?
Such a big loss to Australian rugby.