Reds 2017
- Thread starter Scrubber2050
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Ignoto
Peter Sullivan (51)
Kind of like counting Tahu as a Wallaby. In the strictest sense it's correct, but in reality it's so far from the truth.
Nothing wrong with Latu being a Wallaby.
He has followed the recent Wallaby tradition of being the last hooker standing.
Hanson, Charles, Mann-Rea and Latu have all benefited from injuries to earn their Wallaby call ups in recent years.
He has followed the recent Wallaby tradition of being the last hooker standing.
Hanson, Charles, Mann-Rea and Latu have all benefited from injuries to earn their Wallaby call ups in recent years.
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TOCC
Guest
Semantics but Ready isn't a capped Wallaby..
And my comment about the Tahs quality was aimed to refute the claim that the Reds are the best in the conference by a country mile, I don't think they are, Tahs still have a very strong squad.
It would be interesting to go back to previous years on the forum and see how we're tracking in terms of claiming underdog status for the next season.
What's next on this well worn path? Tahs being January premiers?
What's next on this well worn path? Tahs being January premiers?
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TOCC
Guest
Tahs have been January premiers since 1996..
upthereds#!
Peter Johnson (47)
Hawko
Tony Shaw (54)
The Tahs have a squad with huge potential. Some of the younglings like Holloway and Dempsey have the potential to be long-term Wallabies. They have lots of talent at the very beginning of their careers. But realistically, they have to make that jump much quicker than most players normally do. I reckon the Tahs squad will be awesome in 2018; if they become awesome in 2017 I will be very surprised.
The Reds have pursued a different course (not better or worse, just different). They have recruited a number of real star players at the end of their careers - players like Moore and Smith for example and some experienced players of lesser note like Higgers and Houston, who still should be very good value. Coupled with Simmons and Douglas they have a fearsome pack on paper and enough up-and-comers to ensure the oldies don't slack off. With Cooper back to direct traffic they will be very hard to beat. But in 2018 they will all be a year older and some will be just hanging on by their fingernails in the hope they can make the 2019 WC.
Their head coach is going to be very good and there are enough wise old heads in the team to lead him through his first year. Its a strange phenomenon but when there is a good head coach the assistant coaches tend to look good too!
So, I stand by what I said. On paper the Reds should finish top two and give the dreaded Kiwi teams a huge run for the top spot. But everyone knows that what's on paper doesn't always go the same in real life; planning and execution are not the same thing. So 2017 is going to be an interesting year. I can't wait.
USARugger
John Thornett (49)
Alright, can someone please ban Hawko from this thread before he screws up our entire season?
69 more days!!!!!!!
As much as I have enjoyed the Test matches this year (and I have actually enjoyed them despite the results) I am looking forward to getting back into Super Rugby and not having to have any Tahs in my team
69 more days!!!!!!!
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TOCC
Guest
Hawkos trying to claim underdog status for the Tahs.. Tahs and Reds both have squads with potential to make the finals.. but potential is worth sweet f-all at this time of the season.. both have varying strengths and weaknesses.
All I want is at least a team which is competitive and entertaining to watch
All I want is at least a team which is competitive and entertaining to watch
Scoey
Tony Shaw (54)
Over the last couple of years, by far the loudest criticism of the Reds, the criticism that seemed to underpin all other criticisms was the lack of a discernible game plan.
I think it speaks volumes of the optimism we (Sorry for speaking for you all) have for the new squad and coaching setup, that no one lists a discernible game plan, as a KPI for next season. Obviously we are just assuming that this most basic qualities of a competitive team, will be there.
The proof will be in the pudding but it sounds like most felt that under RG, it wasn't always better the devil you know.
I think it speaks volumes of the optimism we (Sorry for speaking for you all) have for the new squad and coaching setup, that no one lists a discernible game plan, as a KPI for next season. Obviously we are just assuming that this most basic qualities of a competitive team, will be there.
The proof will be in the pudding but it sounds like most felt that under RG, it wasn't always better the devil you know.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Which of the last three years are you referring to? Aren't most Reds supporters trying to forget the inexperienced and untried coaching staff, since Link moved on?
Hawko
Tony Shaw (54)
Hawko's not. IMO underdog status is a load of rubbish, a lazy man's commentary that has no place on an erudite site like this. Analysis beats buzz-words every time.
I've just gone through the probable starting team lists and made a judgement about the known quality of players in each position, then had a look at the back-ups. In my opinion only Kepu and Holloway would get a place in a composite pack and only Hooper, Latu and Mumm would get bench spots. Remember that 95% of the time, the forwards decide who wins.
In the backs, a lesser important metric, Foley and Cooper are equivalent although they play differently, the halfbacks are both limited, Kerevi and Folau are equivalent though different and the rest have got limitations.
On known form, ignoring potential, the Reds win hands down. Robertson, Latu, Hanigan, Dempsey, Holloway, Gordon, Simone and Kellaway all have immense potential and I reckon more than half of them will have long careers in gold. But they have a huge jump to make if that's going to be in 2017.
Brumby Runner
Jason Little (69)
Really Hawko? If I was a Reds' fan, I'd be wanting to know just who in the Reds' squad would keep Hooper on the bench, and on what known form of the Reds would anyone currently rate them better than the Tahs?
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TOCC
Guest
Hooper would be on the bench at the Reds??
That will bloody do me, I've heard enough
Merry Christmas
That will bloody do me, I've heard enough
Merry Christmas
dru
David Wilson (68)
Think I discussed it a bit earlier, certainly around what they might pick up from the WBs and would need more.
Stiles has shown reasonable work in the set piece. There has been discussion of Coopers advising involvement which should be a good thing - to be proven of course.
Missing pieces are basic attack and defence structure. Impossible to have a feel for it right now and I for one would appreciate anyone who has thoughts on Gilmore and Arnold and the sort of structures they have favoured.
This whole thing of selection focus and comparing player to player, well it's not nonsense but it is very incomplete.
For me the HC starts with a philosophy or intended style, call it what you will. Then works a structure to it. He then selects to those intended roles. Which is where it all goes wrong as we dont have the depth for this style of selection. So a good coach then adapts to the player strengths and changes the structures to suit.
Stiles has seemed pretty bought into the ARU support stuff so expect 1-3-3-1 in attack. Though I would have enjoyed a discussion of this vs 2-4-2 "Crusader style" and which suits the Reds better.
We have an entitlement to expect power in our locks and both Simmo and Douglas need to keep stepping up because improvement does not bloody mean they are there. The Loosies are an unknown for me, huge reps and massive history but the Dad's Army thing has to be seen in combat before we can dismiss it.
Cooper is another highlight but again this needs proof. His back up is an unexpected weakness. If Cooper can simply hold together his game direction it doesnt matter if he's lost speed. That attack structure with high ball retention will give Quade the chance... to chance it.
People seem down on Frisbey but I'm comfortable.
The other guy to build a game plan on is Hunt, an obvious second playmaker.
The talent means nothing without the plan to harness it.
TSR
Andrew Slack (58)
I am cautious with my expectations as we need so much improvement from this year and the reality is Stiles was part of this years set up so I don't know to what extent to expect him to recognise that a drastic change in approach is required. I don't think there was anything there from this year other than the set peice that we should be simply looking to build on. Our attacking structure, breakdown work, skills, defence, kicking, kick chase and discipline all need a different approach from what we have had for the last few years. With so much to address and change, I am not sure that one off season is enough.
I would really love to see us return to an open, attacking style and I do think we have the players to do it, but there is a hell of a lot of work to be done to match it with the best. Stiles and our forward pack need to recognise that at Super rugby level dominating scrum, line out and even possession stats is no guarantee of success. Our general forward play needs to be far more dynamic.
Having said all that we have a quality roster and, I believe, a group of players which lend themselves to all of the above and I am looking forward to the season.
I would really love to see us return to an open, attacking style and I do think we have the players to do it, but there is a hell of a lot of work to be done to match it with the best. Stiles and our forward pack need to recognise that at Super rugby level dominating scrum, line out and even possession stats is no guarantee of success. Our general forward play needs to be far more dynamic.
Having said all that we have a quality roster and, I believe, a group of players which lend themselves to all of the above and I am looking forward to the season.
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