Reds 2016

[Jets]

I think using Thorn in a coaching capacity when the 20's are done would be great. I would assume he'd be happy to take the players on in training. I don't really see the point in him playing as it will take away the development of another player.

 

[Scrubber2050]

To me, Thorn has been the best Union and/or league player in history. His longevity, ability to play at the highest level in both codes, switching between the two is quite unbelievable

Having said that it remains to be seen if he can coach at Super level. Would be great for him to be heavily involved but not as Head Coach.

 

[Scoey]

I think using Thorn in a coaching capacity when the 20's are done would be great. I would assume he'd be happy to take the players on in training. I don't really see the point in him playing as it will take away the development of another player.

I wouldn't be keen for him to play at the expense of another player but we're not exactly flush with locks since Kane's knee fell apart either. I'd be happy for him to play impact sub off the bench if injuries depleted our stocks much further.

 

[Brumby Jack]

Reds car park security vision has captured this from above the head coaches spot this morning

 

[Swandive]

I just don't know what to think of all this. I can't see how these two interim coaches can change anything. After-all, they were just as much a part of the first two losses as Richard Graham was. Surely he took their advice and suggestions. And Stiles has been there even longer. How are they going to magically change things? Were they holding out on Richard? Did they have some secrets they didn't want to tell him?
I feel very sorry for RG in the manner this has all happened. I do agree that he wasn't getting what he desired out of the players and it was probably time to move on......last year.
I just wish the players put in as much heart to Qld rugby as RG did. I think they own a huge part of the blame. They get paid good money to go out there on weekends and perform for their fans. Watching the last two games was painful. I don't think it is entirely up to RG to make players play with heart and passion....the players need to bring that part themselves...and I didn't see much of it over the past two weeks.
People are banging on about having experienced players to help the young ones but a lot of these guys were there last year when they had Quade, Genia, Horwill et al. A bit more "heart" is needed before we go on about lack of skills.
Another thing - I feel McIntyre needs more time off the bench. I know there are not so many options available but was Duncan Paia'aua so BAD at standoff last year? Surely no worse than McIntyre who is guilty of running across field too much (I don't want to bag the man but he is young and needs constructive criticism).
Lastly I wish the two interim coaches success and hope Richard Graham lands on his feet again. (you never know, Eddie Jones had an even worse record with Qld and did good things with Japan in the WC and is now coaching England). From all reports he certainly had his heart in the right place. Maybe with less 'needy' players he will do better???
I'd like to see Laurie Fisher get the Reds role in 2017.

 

[Groucho]

I went looking for these big hits, couldn't find any. I think they exist solely in the minds of those who have been infected by red.

Seriously?

You don't remember Ant Finger as a crunching midfield defender? Like in your actual memory, as opposed to an Internet search?

When did you start watching rugby?

 

[Groucho]

To me, Thorn has been the best Union and/or league player in history. His longevity, ability to play at the highest level in both codes, switching between the two is quite unbelievable

Having said that it remains to be seen if he can coach at Super level. Would be great for him to be heavily involved but not as Head Coach.

Thorn's a real hard man, and a class act, as opposed to niggly antagonists like the Bakkies Bothas of the world.

 

[Waterboyrugby]

Another thing - I feel McIntyre needs more time off the bench. I know there are not so many options available but was Duncan Paia'aua so BAD at standoff last year? Surely no worse than McIntyre who is guilty of running across field too much (I don't want to bag the man but he is young and needs constructive criticism).

Yes, yes he was. DP is developing into a decent 12, but was thrown into the deep end coming from league. Anyone who follows QPR closely will know the best 10 currently in Queensland is sitting on the bench.

 

[liquor box]

I wouldn't be keen for him to play at the expense of another player but we're not exactly flush with locks since Kane's knee fell apart either. I'd be happy for him to play impact sub off the bench if injuries depleted our stocks much further.

I think he needs to play one game only.

Go out there and bust his arse and then get in the sheds and tell the young guys how he put in a effort with no training, what excuse have they got?

Lead from the front and set an example!

 

[Intruder]

There have been a lot of opinions on players taking the brunt of RG sacking etc for playing with no heart. I believe that's absolute bollocks. Especially this season to hold these young players accountable is not right at all.

People, it's been a running trend in the RG coaching history. >30% coaching win rate. That is unacceptable, period!!

The people who should held accountable are the board. The playing group has absolutely deteriorated over the past few season. No disrespect to the players this year but Richard and co have driven away a number of quality players. What's the reasoning?

People who wanted to stay in Queensland but were told no, you are not wanted. Retention at this place has been horrific and you can't build nothing on that on or off the field.

Spare a thought for those players when axed after being at a club for 10 seasons. I bet QC (Quade Cooper) wanted at least a mention on his departure from the club or how about James Hansen leaving the Reds and they didn't even acknowledge him on his last home game at Suncorp. Sorry Ben Tapuai we don't want you, we will replace you with Henry Taefu? Ed O'Donoughue, Ed Quirk, Beau Robinson and this season it will be Saia & Anhtony Fainga'a who will be moved on. What is actually going on?

There have been numerous management changes in physios, doctors and S&C over the past three season. Changes every season all because they were not adequate for the job. Coaches who were moved on because RG wanted to play a certain brand of rugby which the players didn't understand and the Queensland fans failed to see... EVER!

These kids his chucked into the deep end are the ones who need our support. It doesn't matter what work field your in if your environment is changing constantly from season to season, gameplans, defensive structures you don't build any sort of rhythm along the way especially under the same coach.

I feel for RG because he is passionate however he has done far more damage than good over his time at the helm. Blaming the playing group for this, I definitely won't buy!

 

[Marcelo]

Thanks!!! God is still alive but too late. A whole wasted season

 

[Groucho]

Thanks!!! God is still alive but too late. A whole wasted season

Not necessarily. It's not over till the fat hooker sings.

 

[Groucho]

There have been a lot of opinions on players taking the brunt of RG sacking etc for playing with no heart. I believe that's absolute bollocks. Especially this season to hold these young players accountable is not right at all.

People, it's been a running trend in the RG coaching history. >30% coaching win rate. That is unacceptable, period!!

The people who should held accountable are the board. The playing group has absolutely deteriorated over the past few season. No disrespect to the players this year but Richard and co have driven away a number of quality players. What's the reasoning?

People who wanted to stay in Queensland but were told no, you are not wanted. Retention at this place has been horrific and you can't build nothing on that on or off the field.

Spare a thought for those players when axed after being at a club for 10 seasons. I bet QC (Quade Cooper) wanted at least a mention on his departure from the club or how about James Hansen leaving the Reds and they didn't even acknowledge him on his last home game at Suncorp. Sorry Ben Tapuai we don't want you, we will replace you with Henry Taefu? Ed O'Donoughue, Ed Quirk, Beau Robinson and this season it will be Saia & Anhtony Fainga'a who will be moved on. What is actually going on?

There have been numerous management changes in physios, doctors and S&C over the past three season. Changes every season all because they were not adequate for the job. Coaches who were moved on because RG wanted to play a certain brand of rugby which the players didn't understand and the Queensland fans failed to see. EVER!

These kids his chucked into the deep end are the ones who need our support. It doesn't matter what work field your in if your environment is changing constantly from season to season, gameplans, defensive structures you don't build any sort of rhythm along the way especially under the same coach.

I feel for RG because he is passionate however he has done far more damage than good over his time at the helm. Blaming the playing group for this, I definitely won't buy!

If the players aren't to "blame", then who would you blame? The board, or RG?

It's easy to list the things that the board has done wrong, but what has RG done wrong, apart from the team losing? Might it also be the case that RG is also a victim of the board's mistakes?

Admittedly, poor skills is an example of a coach's failings, but is it a Super Rugby's coach's responsibility to teach players how to tackle and pass? Surrely they should know how to do that already?

Blame is a powerful code word. Unless the coach makes genuine mistakes, the "responsibility" for losses assigns mainly to players. They're the ones on the field. Coaches don't miss tackles. Neither do board members.

If the players aren't good anough, then they're not good enough. In that case "blame" assigns to the club for not getting better players.

And if the coach makes actual mistakes (as opposed to not being able to turn dross into silk) then "blame" assigns there too.

But the people on the field have responsibility for winning on the day.

 

[USARugger]

There have been a lot of opinions on players taking the brunt of RG sacking etc for playing with no heart. I believe that's absolute bollocks. Especially this season to hold these young players accountable is not right at all.

Well put.

This isn't even to mention what it's like being a player who is part of a team having a system forced on them that clearly doesn't work.

Do you go against coach's plan and risk not getting selected because of this?.. Which in a professional sporting environment is one step away from risking your job - the thing keeping a roof over your head and food on your table.

Or do you follow coach's orders regardless of how ineffective they might be because you'd rather not put your job on the line and risk not having a contract renewed?

Then consider how many times the board affirmed over a period of years through words and much more importantly their actions that no matter how poorly this coach performed, he was not going anywhere. Even in sports organizations where there are backroom staff who handle a large amount of player recruiting, scouting, and contracting (much of the NFL functions this way) the coach still has significant input in who is actually signed and who is let go when contracts come up.

Also consider the age composition of the squad that's been "built" since 2013. A considerable portion of the team are currently on their first or second professional contract, and with their first tier-one professional rugby franchise.

These young players have little/no stock/brand/reputation outside of Queensland and maybe Australia if they were a particularly exceptional youngster. This is to say that these players can't just go out and expect to get offers from clubs domestically or overseas if they were to break rank at the Reds and not have their contract renewed.

Could they find a club if they absolutely had to? Probably. Would they have to take a pay cut, move away from their family and friends, and potentially rule themselves out of national selection (a decision that could have a massive impact on the rest of their career)? They'll almost definitely have to cope with two of the above, one if they are fortunate.

To top it off, it's not like these players aren't aware of how badly playing in a not only losing, but borderline dysfunctional team can damage your own chances of progressing in your personal athletic career.

Combine these factors and you've created a zero-sum game for these players that's never going to end in anything other than them slowly having their confidence squeezed out of them as they feel trapped between playing in a mess of a team (possibly damaging their personal stock in the process, not to mention the mental impact of playing in a team like this to begin with) or risking their career flat-out.

What I've heard about RG's personal approach to player management wouldn't have made any of this easier to deal with. He allegedly has a very Gatland-esque approach - play outside the game plan, or worse, make a mistake while playing outside the game plan and you're going to get the proverbial cane up your ass. It seemed to be Woody's way or the highway.

Does anyone on here honestly, actually believe that Sanchez, Horwill, and QC (Quade Cooper) (Hansen a bit of a different situation due to hookers we had on the books and the nature of their contracts when he left) left in the twilight of their careers? That we didn't miss out on 2-3+ years of quality rugby for all three?

Quade is 27.

Will is 28.

James is 30.

I seriously doubt the timing of their departures was some kind of funny coincidence. There were definitely other factors at play but it's no coincidence that three of our players with the highest market value in the rugby player market all bailed ship right around the same time. They had the ability to get away from the shit show at Ballymore before it impacted their own personal playing stock too severely, so they did.

The younger guys don't necessarily have those opportunities. Others likely don't want to give up on their dream of playing for Queensland or move away from their family and friends.

It's a perfect storm that's going to guarantee you nothing other than a group of players that's never going to play anywhere near their potential. Confidence is an enormous factor in the performance of any player - I'd question the personal playing history of anyone that argues otherwise. Nobody is going to have much confidence playing in a dysfunctional team with an authoritarian coach who has what seems to be the unfaltering support of the backroom management.

I'm sure many of you who played/still play the game know what it feels like when a coach is trying to force tactics or a system that just isn't working or couldn't ever possibly work anywhere other than inside their own mind. It's pretty shit.

Try doing it with the implication of your entire career (and the next 10+ years of your life) on the line, and in a scenario where you are being forced into what can only be described as a lose/lose.

So no, it's not on the fucking players. This entire scenario was created by RG's ineptitude as a coach and the board's ineptitude as a management group for the Reds franchise. Making the team bottom-heavy with youngsters and throwing guys into the deep end with no real prior indication that they know how to swim just amplified the mess when it came to game time.

Sorry for the biblically long post but I'm already tired of seeing posts trying to stick this on a playing group who has had the deck stacked against them like the Reds playing group has. You don't go to the mechanic to get your tires checked when the transmission is fucked.

TL;DR

The "system" installed by RG at the Reds does a lot to put individual players under pressure which is going to cause a deterioration in individual skills execution on it's own. Couple this with the pressures felt by a young squad trying to execute a losing game plan (either go against the tide and risk having a contract go without renewal before you're really enough of a commodity as a player to have many other options that don't require a great deal of personal sacrifice, or risk damaging your personal stock as a player by playing a rabble of a game plan in a losing team) under a coach with a bit of a dictatorship mentality regarding the players (who also has what seemed to be unwavering backing from the rest of the organization, no matter how bad the rot was getting) and you have a recipe for disaster.

It's not the first time that poor coaching has led to an otherwise good squad playing poorly both as a unit and as individuals, it won't be the last.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Well put.

This isn't even to mention what it's like being a player who is part of a team having a system forced on them that clearly doesn't work.

Do you go against coach's plan and risk not getting selected because of this?.. Which in a professional sporting environment is one step away from risking your job - the thing keeping a roof over your head and food on your table.

Or do you follow coach's orders regardless of how ineffective they might be because you'd rather not put your job on the line and risk not having a contract renewed?

Then consider how many times the board affirmed over a period of years through words and much more importantly their actions that no matter how poorly this coach performed, he was not going anywhere. Even in sports organizations where there are backroom staff who handle a large amount of player recruiting, scouting, and contracting (much of the NFL functions this way) the coach still has significant input in who is actually signed and who is let go when contracts come up.

Also consider the age composition of the squad that's been "built" since 2013. A considerable portion of the team are currently on their first or second professional contract, and with their first tier-one professional rugby franchise.

These young players have little/no stock/brand/reputation outside of Queensland and maybe Australia if they were a particularly exceptional youngster. This is to say that these players can't just go out and expect to get offers from clubs domestically or overseas if they were to break rank at the Reds and not have their contract renewed.

Could they find a club if they absolutely had to? Probably. Would they have to take a pay cut, move away from their family and friends, and potentially rule themselves out of national selection (a decision that could have a massive impact on the rest of their career)? They'll almost definitely have to cope with two of the above, one if they are fortunate.

To top it off, it's not like these players aren't aware of how badly playing in a not only losing, but borderline dysfunctional team can damage your own chances of progressing in your personal athletic career.

Combine these factors and you've created a zero-sum game for these players that's never going to end in anything other than them slowly having their confidence squeezed out of them as they feel trapped between playing in a mess of a team (possibly damaging their personal stock in the process, not to mention the mental impact of playing in a team like this to begin with) or risking their career flat-out.

What I've heard about RG's personal approach to player management wouldn't have made any of this easier to deal with. He allegedly has a very Gatland-esque approach - play outside the game plan, or worse, make a mistake while playing outside the game plan and you're going to get the proverbial cane up your ass. It seemed to be Woody's way or the highway.

Does anyone on here honestly, actually believe that Sanchez, Horwill, and QC (Quade Cooper) (Hansen a bit of a different situation due to hookers we had on the books and the nature of their contracts when he left) left in the twilight of their careers? That we didn't miss out on 2-3+ years of quality rugby for all three?

Quade is 27.

Will is 28.

James is 30.

I seriously doubt the timing of their departures was some kind of funny coincidence. There were definitely other factors at play but it's no coincidence that three of our players with the highest market value in the rugby player market all bailed ship right around the same time. They had the ability to get away from the shit show at Ballymore before it impacted their own personal playing stock too severely, so they did.

The younger guys don't necessarily have those opportunities. Others likely don't want to give up on their dream of playing for Queensland or move away from their family and friends.

It's a perfect storm that's going to guarantee you nothing other than a group of players that's never going to play anywhere near their potential. Confidence is an enormous factor in the performance of any player - I'd question the personal playing history of anyone that argues otherwise. Nobody is going to have much confidence playing in a dysfunctional team with an authoritarian coach who has what seems to be the unfaltering support of the backroom management.

I'm sure many of you who played/still play the game know what it feels like when a coach is trying to force tactics or a system that just isn't working or couldn't ever possibly work anywhere other than inside their own mind. It's pretty shit.

Try doing it with the implication of your entire career (and the next 10+ years of your life) on the line, and in a scenario where you are being forced into what can only be described as a lose/lose.

So no, it's not on the fucking players. This entire scenario was created by RG's ineptitude as a coach and the board's ineptitude as a management group for the Reds franchise. Making the team bottom-heavy with youngsters and throwing guys into the deep end with no real prior indication that they know how to swim just amplified the mess when it came to game time.

Sorry for the biblically long post but I'm already tired of seeing posts trying to stick this on a playing group who has had the deck stacked against them like the Reds playing group has. You don't go to the mechanic to get your tires checked when the transmission is fucked.

TL;DR

The "system" installed by RG at the Reds does a lot to put individual players under pressure which is going to cause a deterioration in individual skills execution on it's own. Couple this with the pressures felt by a young squad trying to execute a losing game plan (either go against the tide and risk having a contract go without renewal before you're really enough of a commodity as a player to have many other options that don't require a great deal of personal sacrifice, or risk damaging your personal stock as a player by playing a rabble of a game plan in a losing team) under a coach with a bit of a dictatorship mentality regarding the players (who also has what seemed to be unwavering backing from the rest of the organization, no matter how bad the rot was getting) and you have a recipe for disaster.

It's not the first time that poor coaching has led to an otherwise good squad playing poorly both as a unit and as individuals, it won't be the last.

Agree with your post !!!!
RG wanted to "stamp" his own players. Some of the players were moved on to bring through younger guys who would have allegiance to RG. That is a basic management flaw in the bloke. Cordingly was a willing participant and his head should be in the basket now or at least on the chopping block.

There is no doubt RG did his best - but as John Howard made comment about Rudd a few months into the Prime Ministership
"I think the job is just a little too big for him"

RG was a bad choice and the error was compounded by his re-appointment

 

[suckerforred]

So, other than Coach, can we envisage any changes to the team for this weekend against the Rebels?

Assume that Saia is Out so Ready will start. But who will be our reserve hooker?

Will the be wholesale changes or only those forced by injury?

 

[Scrubber2050]

So, other than Coach, can we envisage any changes to the team for this weekend against the Rebels?

Assume that Saia is Out so Ready will start. But who will be our reserve hooker?

Will the be wholesale changes or only those forced by injury?

I think the only real personell change will Ready.

The real change we SHOULD see is the ATTITUDE.

Players will all be out there trying to impress the new co-coaches (as often seems to happen after a change of coach)

We shall see.

GO THE REDS

 

[Intruder]

So, other than Coach, can we envisage any changes to the team for this weekend against the Rebels?

Assume that Saia is Out so Ready will start. But who will be our reserve hooker?

Will the be wholesale changes or only those forced by injury?

IMO there will be changes. Ant Fainga'a is back from injury and should be added into the side.

Matthew Mafi will come into the side for Saia Fainga'a. He is regarded as the Reds best scrummaging hooker.

 

[Troy]

IMO there will be changes. Ant Fainga'a is back from injury and should be added into the side.

Matthew Mafi will come into the side for Saia Fainga'a. He is regarded as the Reds best scrummaging hooker.

Interesting, I haven't heard much of Mafi but was listening to Bob on the GAGR pod this morning, he seemed to think very highly of Ready. Ready is Ready...

Are you saying you think Mafi will start? Be keen to see him on the field.

 

[Troy]

From the courier mail - looks like Ready to start.

Also JC looks like he's sticking around until his contract expires in Oct...

QRU chief executive Jim Carmichael is committed to staying at the helm to lead through this rocky period with new chairman Damien Frawley.​

Carmichael advised several board members last year he planned to move on when his contract finishes in October and that still appears the timetable.​

Carmichael has been a strong policy reformer, not just with the new five-year QRU plan in place but with input to the Australian Rugby Union’s new strategic plan.
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