Rebels 2015

[daz]

That's not bigger picture at all. Neville is a full-time rugby player who currently isn't good enough to play for the Rebels. He's the classic looks like Tarzan plays like Jane. All the players currently performing well for the Rebels were the absolute cream of the crop in the NRC. Neville was middle of the road there. Packing him off to Sydney because that's currently a higher standard of rugby than Melbourne might help Neville and Manly in the short term, but it comes at the cost of continuing to improve the Melbourne club rugby scene.

Building a functional club rugby scene and developing a consistent production line is the single best way for the Rebels to become sustainable long term. Stripping players from that scene for a potential short term gain for an individual is madness.

As an apprentice in my younger days, under an exchange program every year I was shipped off to another company for a 2-3 week period to hone my skills in different subjects under subject matter experts.

This was not because my parent company did not have a place for me, but because it was recognised that exposure to different practices would help me grow.

Obviously this is a bit different to a pro-sports setting, but the fact is that the Rebels are paying a salary to Neville whether he plays in the match day squad or not.

At the moment, he is struggling to be a part of the team that he is being paid to contribute to.

So, the question then becomes one of growth and opportunity. Is it better to send Neville off to play in the Dewar Shield, where he would be a huge fish in a talent-shallow pond and learn almost nothing new, or would it be better to have him exposed back into the Shute Shield, where he would be mentored by the best club program in the country to give him the best chance to be a good apprentice?

I agree that long term, the Rebels are best served by a good production line of ready made local players, and that Dewar system would also be a good place to drop struggling players back to get some form. But that isn't at the level we need right now, so short term, there is a damn good training academy running out of Sydney that we would be foolish to ignore.

 

[Dumbledore]

I agree completely.

Sefa Naivalu is holding his own in Super Rugby and is hopefully the tip of the iceberg for Melbourne Club Rugby to start producing professional quality players.

He's looked better than English and Shipperly early days. In fairness, he is a bit of a poach but still, it does go to show that the pathway exists. If you do well in Melbourne you'll get a shot in the NRC. If you do well in the NRC you'll get a shot in the Soup. I just can't see any way that taking Neville out of Melbourne club rugby, where he should be absolutely dominating if the people who think he's Wallaby standard are right, helps anyone.

Frankly, Timani has shown more in two games than Neville has in three years. I hope Neville's seen that and is absolutey busting his arse in training to get back to the team. And if he isn't, well, that pretty much says everything you need to know.

 

[daz]

I agree completely.

Sefa Naivalu is holding his own in Super Rugby and is hopefully the tip of the iceberg for Melbourne Club Rugby to start producing professional quality players.

Players of this ilk are the exception, not the rule in Victoria right now.

 

[Braveheart81]

Players of this ilk are the exception, not the rule in Victoria right now.

I know, but it doesn't take much increase to really change things.

If you unearth another guy in 2015 who ends up with a Super Rugby contract and then two the year after, all of a sudden it isn't long before there's a reasonable representation of local talent in the Rebels squad.

WA is starting to hit critical mass in terms of producing local talent who are part of their Super Rugby squad and their under 20 team has done exceptionally well so far this year.

The Force are only 10 years old so it hasn't taken a huge amount of time for things to really start providing wider benefits.

 

[daz]

I know, but it doesn't take much increase to really change things.

If you unearth another guy in 2015 who ends up with a Super Rugby contract and then two the year after, all of a sudden it isn't long before there's a reasonable representation of local talent in the Rebels squad.

WA is starting to hit critical mass in terms of producing local talent who are part of their Super Rugby squad and their under 20 team has done exceptionally well so far this year.

The Force are only 10 years old so it hasn't taken a huge amount of time for things to really start providing wider benefits.

Absolutely agree, and I look forward to that day which I feel confident is a question of when, rather than if. But the argument here is really whether Vic is in a position to assist someone like Cadeyrn Neville right now, who is struggling to find either form or motivation.

IMHO, we would get a better and quicker answer to that question in Shute Shield, compared to Dewar Shield.

 

[Braveheart81]

Well the first round of the Shute Shield isn't until the 21st of March so it's not like he'd be better served attending training at Manly a few nights a week right now.

 

[Dumbledore]

At the moment, he is struggling to be a part of the team that he is being paid to contribute to.

So, the question then becomes one of growth and opportunity. Is it better to send Neville off to play in the Dewar Shield, where he would be a huge fish in a talent-shallow pond and learn almost nothing new, or would it be better to have him exposed back into the Shute Shield, where he would be mentored by the best club program in the country to give him the best chance to be a good apprentice?

I agree that long term, the Rebels are best served by a good production line of ready made local players, and that Dewar system would also be a good place to drop struggling players back to get some form. But that isn't at the level we need right now, so short term, there is a damn good training academy running out of Sydney that we would be foolish to ignore.

If he's being outperformed by Sam Jeffries in training is he really going to be a huge fish in the Dewar Shield?

The Rebels are a lot deeper now than they were. There are going to be some very decent players skipping around playing club rugby. I can see how playing Shute Shield probably be beneficial to Neville, but I don't think he's such a good player that exceptions need to be made. If he goes off the Jordy Reid should, Cruze Ah Nuh should, Veainu, Placid, and Crawford should...

It's going to take about five more years before anything resembling consistent production starts coming out of Melbourne, but having fringe Soup players in the local competition is needed to help drag that along. They're going to add so much in terms of professionalism, training standards, technique, general rugby nous.

It'll be a shame if Neville drops through the cracks, but he's been given every chance to show what he's got at this level.

 

[Dave Beat]

I do understand and also support the point you are putting across, but also looking at the whole food chain, rather than just one patch of the reef.

What has been demonstrated over recent years is that the current structure has players heading offshore, and us also bringing in players that will never where the Gold.

• Do I have a solution no.
• An idea yeah, fringe super players play at the club of "their choice" but play with their Super Feeder club in the NRC.
• The NRC include more of the Club Players so they improve the Club scene as you have outlined above, and not field a Super side. This will in turn improve your club scene.

I have swam in these waters before and do not want a debate, rather share ideas for the greater long term good of Australian Rugby.

 

[daz]

I completely understand what you are saying DD. I think that in Neville's case, if he doesn't perform quickly, and I mean quickly, he won't drop through the cracks so much as be swallowed up by the cracks.

And from memory, didn't Jordy get send back to Sydney for rehab and to get some form after his shoulder op a year or so ago?

 

[Dumbledore]

I completely understand what you are saying DD. I think that in Neville's case, if he doesn't perform quickly, and I mean quickly, he won't drop through the cracks so much as be swallowed up by the cracks.

And from memory, didn't Jordy get send back to Sydney for rehab and to get some form after his shoulder op a year or so ago?

I hear you, and you Dave.

The difference, for me, is that we've now had an NRC and seen that there are Melbourne club players who are up to that level. Not the best at that level, but comfortable and competent. And that's about where Neville is probably sitting for me at the moment. Average to upper tier NRC. If he'd had a belter of an NRC, really set himself up for a massive season then injured himself, then I'd probably look at it slightly differently.

But I just can't see the argument at the moment that he's such a good, talented, player that we need to change the system for. He's just not that much better than a whole lot of other guys we have. He's got prototypical size but if the Rebels and Wallabies haven't been able to turn him into the sort of player who can regularly compete for Wallaby selection I'm not sure how Manly and the Shute Shield will?

 

[Dave Beat]

But I just can't see the argument at the moment that he's such a good, talented, player that we need to change the system for. He's just not that much better than a whole lot of other guys we have. He's got prototypical size but if the Rebels and Wallabies haven't been able to turn him into the sort of player who can regularly compete for Wallaby selection I'm not sure how Manly and the Shute Shield will?

I can only speak about history here;

• Strong season of Shute Rugby.
• Signed up be Rebels and also kept playing quality club rugby.
• 2 combined had him playing consistently at a higher level and getting more Super exposure.
• Then he ended up in the Wallaby train on.

We can all see read the above differently but i think some players lift when they are exposed to higher levels consistently - i know i play better golf when i play with better players.

 

[TOCC]

How long was Sefa in the Melbourne club scene, I was under the belief that he came across from Fiji only in the past 2 years?


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[KevinO]

How long was Sefa in the Melbourne club scene, I was under the belief that he came across from Fiji only in the past 2 years?


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Your correct, only one season of Vic rugby.

 

[Tex]

Shhhhhhhh THE PATHWAYS ARE STRONG!

(as is the island recruiting program.)

 

[Ado Tornado]

Didn't the Rebs u15's win the national gold cup and the U17's made the granny too. Pathways are strong cause that wouldn't gave happened 5 years ago.

 

[Average Outside Center]

I think thats a very unfair assessment of Vic Rugby, for the past few years if I'm not mistaken for the past few years we have been on par with WA in numbers for U20 and Australian Schoolboys

 

[Tex]

Fark fellas tongue in cheek!

 

[oztimmay]

Think everyone needs to relax with a Beer.

 

[Average Outside Center]

I think the boys will be working on maul defence this week...

 

[oztimmay]

Lineout throws too.