Rebels 2013

[en_force_er]

i think it was more all decent tghtheads were injured..so what can you do?

Lets be honest in Aus rugby is an elitist sport, playe by a select grou of schools seriously. So until that changes your still going to be selecting from the same small group of players. Letting teams pick a couple of argentinians free of penalty isnt really going to affect our national game in the run of things as i doubt oz scouts will be flocking rosario to pick up argentinians left right and centre. but clubs ight pick up omeone liek juan imhoff for a season and then keep him or let him go.

if we sip over a half decet aussie inn the process i am not that worried as i thik peope underestimate the amount of expats we have kicking around european leagues.

And realistically if your good enough you will make it regardless if you have to compete with a argentinian or not

But here's what I'm saying, we already have the space within our current system. The Rebels could hypothetically have 8 Argentinean playing for them, that's around 1/4 of a RC squad.

We don't need dispensations to hire them, just a change of recruiting. Less watching ITM Cup and more watching Campeonato Argentino.

 

[Sir Arthur Higgins]

what are the current squad sizes? 30 players? keep it as is, but allow teams to have up to an additional 2 players if they are argentinian. if to some extent that is implemented across super 15, then that could be up to 30 argentinians playing in super rugby.
this would not harm australian players as they can still be signed up to super rugby in the same numbers and have every chance to play at the top level.
the goal should be to expand the game. the more involvement argentina has, the more people watching and participating, the more compelling the competition and ultimately the more money - which can be funnelled into the domestic game to help it grow.

 

[en_force_er]

what are the current squad sizes? 30 players? keep it as is, but allow teams to have up to an additional 2 players if they are argentinian. if to some extent that is implemented across super 15, then that could be up to 30 argentinians playing in super rugby.
this would not harm australian players as they can still be signed up to super rugby in the same numbers and have every chance to play at the top level.
the goal should be to expand the game. the more involvement argentina has, the more people watching and participating, the more compelling the competition and ultimately the more money - which can be funnelled into the domestic game to help it grow.

But it would add 100,000 plus to the yearly salary (not to mention other stuff we don't hear about, players that get moved interstate don't generally pay their rent or for cars).

We could have more than 2 Argentinians at every Aussie province on average by 2014 if we wanted to. We don't need to change rules or spent more money, we just need to scout differently. An Argentinian international player > A Kiwi 3rd Tier Player. It's literally that simple.

If our conversation becomes disconnected from logic (like for example the ones we have on the ARC) we can't expect anyone to take us seriously. Don't cry for policy change, cry for better action within our policies.

 

[TOCC]

What is the benefit to Australia of having an Argentine player playing in Australia rather then Europe?
What is the benefit to Argentina of having a test player playing in Australia rather then France?

It isn't availability, the IRB has also directed that their be a window made available for European clubs to release Argentine players for the Rugby Championship Test window..
Their wages will always be superior in Europe, Australian teams would be fighting a uphill battle to even attract those players.

 

[en_force_er]

What is the benefit to Australia of having an Argentine player playing in Australia rather then Europe?
What is the benefit to Argentina of having a test player playing in Australia rather then France?

It isn't availability, the IRB has also directed that their be a window made available for European clubs to release Argentine players for the Rugby Championship Test window..
Their wages will always be superior in Europe, Australian teams would be fighting a uphill battle to even attract those players.

You raise some good points but look at it from a different angle for a second.

We're not talking about recruiting Hernandez here, think of a player like Cabello who's damn talented 6/lock who's started every Argentinian game this year and currently is only playing for the Pampas XV.

The advantage to Australia is that a they get better players, a fringe Argentinian International would be better than a fringe Kiwi Super Rugby player and there are some of those players avalible for scouting. This I'd guess is due to the fact that their value in France is now less thanks to the window they are unavalible.

The advantage to Argentina is the players get to play a better level of rugby consistently, obviously the top Pro12 or Top14 teams are Super Rugby standard but outside that they are a much lower level. Also, the players would ALWAYS be avalible to Argentina as oppose to now when some players weren't avalible for their Spring Tour.

The opportunities are there I just think that ITM Cup is the easier option.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

what are the current squad sizes? 30 players? keep it as is, but allow teams to have up to an additional 2 players if they are argentinian. if to some extent that is implemented across super 15, then that could be up to 30 argentinians playing in super rugby.
this would not harm australian players as they can still be signed up to super rugby in the same numbers and have every chance to play at the top level.
the goal should be to expand the game. the more involvement argentina has, the more people watching and participating, the more compelling the competition and ultimately the more money - which can be funnelled into the domestic game to help it grow.

It's 35. Though I'm pretty sure it used t be higher. Why not increase it to 38 and bring in some of the talented future Pumas into Super Rugby. There are a quite a few good future prospects running around in their U20 and Jaguars set ups who would jump at the chance.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

What is the benefit to Australia of having an Argentine player playing in Australia rather then Europe?
What is the benefit to Argentina of having a test player playing in Australia rather then France?

It isn't availability, the IRB has also directed that their be a window made available for European clubs to release Argentine players for the Rugby Championship Test window..
Their wages will always be superior in Europe, Australian teams would be fighting a uphill battle to even attract those players.

Yes but Argentina had to cut some deals as to not lower their players values

 

[Sir Arthur Higgins]

It's 35. Though I'm pretty sure it used t be higher. Why not increase it to 38 and bring in some of the talented future Pumas into Super Rugby. There are a quite a few good future prospects running around in their U20 and Jaguars set ups who would jump at the chance.

Exactly
the benefit of increasing to 37/38 (if the additional players are argies) is that you get a larger squad. look at the injury toll throughought Australian rugby - you need larger squads to rotate players through and give stars a rest every now and then. it's a bloody big season for a wallaby with 15 internationals and in excess of 16 super rugby games for most players.

I agree with what you're saying en_forc_er but i personally think the squads need to be bigger and bringing in argies is a good way to do it.

 

[en_force_er]

Exactly
the benefit of increasing to 37/38 (if the additional players are argies) is that you get a larger squad. look at the injury toll throughought Australian rugby - you need larger squads to rotate players through and give stars a rest every now and then. it's a bloody big season for a wallaby with 15 internationals and in excess of 16 super rugby games for most players.

I agree with what you're saying en_forc_er but i personally think the squads need to be bigger and bringing in argies is a good way to do it.

I get the point you're making too which is why this is more a debate then a flame war, nothing wrong with that.

More spots in our Super Rugby squads would be nice but I'd rather see two more EPS spots for Aussies given. The EPS encourages ballsy decisions, like hireing that bloke that ripped up the Canberra league, a league convert, or a rower turned rugby player. More EPS would lead to more ballsy and potentially terrific decisions.

Hiring Argies on the other hand just creates a system where for some reason Australia has to foot Argentina's rugby development bills. It would make some sense if SANZAR got together and decided to help Argentina but why should Australia off it's own back?

Whilst it makes sense to allow us to hire international players to increase the quality of our teams and attract crowd numbers, forcing us to hire a particular nationality in large numbers simply takes the burden off of that nation to build something sustainable. Argentinia may just be a developing world country due to it's more backward rural areas but it has a reasonably strong economy and dense cities. We don't need to foot their development bill, we need to help them build their own system and use their players to our advantage in the meantime.

PS. Next year Argentinians 2 and 3 (after Hernandez for the Sharks) will debut in Super Rugby for the Southern Kings so progress is being made.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

We actually do the least for other nations out of the whole of SANZAR.

Nz is free to sign Pacific Islanders and as you have noticed some japenese, and the the third tier has even more ex-pats.

South Africa on the other hand employ players from other african nations liek Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namimbia and Kenya. As well as giveing Argentina massive opportunities by allowing as you said a few argies to play for the provinces and by fielidng multiple competive matches for the Pampas XV

In Australia we have 2 possibld foreign spots available for when teams choose to utilise and most of the time we jsut try to get players who have a OZ passport.

The only two teams who really utilise visa players are the rebels and force.

 

[en_force_er]

We actually do the least for other nations out of the whole of SANZAR.

Nz is free to sign Pacific Islanders and as you have noticed some japenese, and the the third tier has even more ex-pats.

South Africa on the other hand employ players from other african nations liek Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namimbia and Kenya. As well as giveing Argentina massive opportunities by allowing as you said a few argies to play for the provinces and by fielidng multiple competive matches for the Pampas XV

In Australia we have 2 possibld foreign spots available for when teams choose to utilise and most of the time we jsut try to get players who have a OZ passport.

The only two teams who really utilise visa players are the rebels and force.

I agree but it's really a different discussion. It all comes back to using the current systems better and being more creative.

I cried out for the Rebels to hire Horie as soon as a hooking spot opened up and low-and-behold we did. Daniel Adongo I was also curious about but you don't want too many bolters in a squad.

It's easy to have players for all kinds of parts of the world when you have a good 3rd tier, in fact there's plenty of players with interesting back stories in our 3rd tier (the local 1st grades), you just need to look into it. So the whole Aus not doing much for world rugby when compared to NZ/SA argument is a hard one to see as fair.

Plus, there's as many Japanese Super Rugby players in NZ as there is in Australia.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

I agree but it's really a different discussion. It all comes back to using the current systems better and being more creative.

I cried out for the Rebels to hire Horie as soon as a hooking spot opened up and low-and-behold we did. Daniel Adongo I was also curious about but you don't want too many bolters in a squad.

It's easy to have players for all kinds of parts of the world when you have a good 3rd tier, in fact there's plenty of players with interesting back stories in our 3rd tier (the local 1st grades), you just need to look into it. So the whole Aus not doing much for world rugby when compared to NZ/SA argument is a hard one to see as fair.

Plus, there's as many Japanese Super Rugby players in NZ as there is in Australia.

By Capping the international players S15 clubs can have we are not doing as much as the other nations that don't have a cap. That's a fair statement, regardless of our lack of third tier, because realisticlaly our squads should be bigger and all clubs should have an academy similar to the Reds one.

You can hardly count local 1st grade as doign somethign for the internaional scene as you can realistaclly rock up at any club and get a gig not many of them are signign internationals as to 'develop' them, and most the internationals that do play1st grade are players who were living in the country before their cap or moved here for other reasons later,

The Japan in super rugby comment was a nod to how they are not limited on international players not that they are japanese player hub

 

[en_force_er]

By Capping the international players S15 clubs can have we are not doing as much as the other nations that don't have a cap. That's a fair statement, regardless of our lack of third tier, because realisticlaly our squads should be bigger and all clubs should have an academy similar to the Reds one.

You can hardly count local 1st grade as doign somethign for the internaional scene as you can realistaclly rock up at any club and get a gig not many of them are signign internationals as to 'develop' them, and most the internationals that do play1st grade are players who were living in the country before their cap or moved here for other reasons later,

The Japan in super rugby comment was a nod to how they are not limited on international players not that they are japanese player hub

Whilst in NZ and SA they do have the ability to sign hypothetically infinite foreign players, they don't. In fact the amount of foreign players playing Super Rugby on average is highest in Australia (which is boosted mostly by the Rebels).

I think you're overly optimistic if you think 3rd Tier NZ and SA teams sign players purely to develop them. They sign them because they are the cheapest good players on offer at the time. The Pampas XV is on Argentina's coin not SAs, let's remember that (not taking anything away from SA, they obviously provide the infrastructure).

For example the Chilean lock Pablo Huete who played for Tasman in 2011 went to NZ to improve his game and got picked up to play ITM and was one of the better locks in the league that year. He didn't get scouted, he took a punt. It's great he got to play ITM Cup but it was because it was in Tasman's best interests to sign him not because they decided to improve rugby in the nation of Chile.

Our lack of ability to help 2nd and 3rd tier rugby nations is affected by our lack of a 3rd tier more than anything else. It's not like we're deliberately doing it because we don't want to help the greater good.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

I never said that they do it to improive the players you stated above

It's easy to have players for all kinds of parts of the world when you have a good 3rd tier, in fact there's plenty of players with interesting back stories in our 3rd tier (the local 1st grades), you just need to look into it. So the whole Aus not doing much for world rugby when compared to NZ/SA argument is a hard one to see as fair.

Plus, there's as many Japanese Super Rugby players in NZ as there is in Australia.

alluding to the fact that australia is helping to develop players......your just arguing for the sake of arguing and i think you will find that if you exlcuded the rebels whose overseas numbers are droppign anyway. I think you will find that our numbers are alot lower. If you look at the saffa squads you will be surprised by the amount of minnows kicking it

 

[Braveheart81]

Surely it is just the set of circumstances that means South Africa has lots of players from Zimbabwe and Namibia etc. and New Zealand has lots of Pacific Islanders.

I don't think it is by any great design that these players end up where they do.

 

[en_force_er]

I never said that they do it to improive the players you stated above



alluding to the fact that australia is helping to develop players..your just arguing for the sake of arguing and i think you will find that if you exlcuded the rebels whose overseas numbers are droppign anyway. I think you will find that our numbers are alot lower. If you look at the saffa squads you will be surprised by the amount of minnows kicking it

I never alluded to that, I just said (rather than alluded to) the fact that there's plenty of foreigners in our 3rd tier just as there are in other nations.

I very much agree with @Braveheart81's comment as to why.

We actually do the least for other nations out of the whole of SANZAR.

Perhaps I ministered, you never literally said that SA and NZ do it to improve the other nations but I though that was what you were suggesting due to the comment above.

The reality is I doubt anyone really does much work purely to help world rugby, the only cases that come to mind is Canterbury's work in South America and Japan's extra professional spots for players from smaller Asian rugby nations (which not many teams choose to fill).

Either way, Australia isn't in the best position to dole out help to fledgling international nations. France and Japan on the other hand are, as previously covered.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

Well i am glad you say that as Brisbane has one of the highest islander and Nz populations outside of their respective countries didnt happen by any desgin but alot emigrate there....yet i know that alot of premier grade players who have been capped internationally have had to leave the country as they were told that that clusb werent willing to give out a foreign player spot.

Google one such Rota Setu.....it was even discuseed on the QLd Premier grade forum scored a try to game ratio of 1.8, but because when he was 19 he took a samoa A cap.....now has headed to Japan issues like this shouldn't happen. and wouldn't if we changed the rules.

The thign with NZ is that these players with heritage dont have to play for NZ if they want to stay playing S15 wher is in Australia you do.

Just look at the amount of non-australian born players in our S15 ranks, now think about how many of them ar elikely never to see a cap for Australia yet because they want to stay at their prospective province they can't gain a cap playing Tonga,Samoa or fiji.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

Eit: Lets talk about the rebels

Who is going to be the Caderyn Neville of this year?

 

[en_force_er]

Eit: Lets talk about the rebels

Who is going to be the Caderyn Neville of this year?

The EPS hooker will get a tonne of game time, could be him. There's only two hookers in the main squad so he's only a niggle away from getting minutes off the bench.

Not to mention Horie might have a heap of potential but he's far from proven.

 

[KevinO]

Eit: Lets talk about the rebels

Who is going to be the Caderyn Neville of this year?

Hope Inman becomes the finished product and starts scoring trys. He offers something different for both the Rebels and Wallabies if he gets his game together.

Big Powerfull Center that reminds me of Mortlock except for his finishing ability.