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R7: Waratahs vs Sunwolves - Friday 29 March @ Newcastle

KOB1987

John Eales (66)
They have big end of season games at the end of September/early October, which are about 2 weeks before the start of RWC, which starts mid-October.

League and AFL finals series games are just as intense as RWC games - in fact more intense as there is a finals intensity game 4 weeks in a row. RWC has one tough pool game for the top tier countries, maybe a second competitive game and a couple of walkovers.
Difference is all the NRL and AFL Teams are on a level playing field, and they know what’s ahead of them. We’re trying to take down the best nations in the world in our sport and that kind of requires a strategy. It might not be the strategy you’d take, but god help us if you’re ever in charge
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Difference is all the NRL and AFL Teams are on a level playing field, and they know what’s ahead of them. We’re trying to take down the best nations in the world in our sport and that kind of requires a strategy. It might not be the strategy you’d take, but god help us if you’re ever in charge

Firstly, you're safe in the knowledge that I'll never be in charge. But nobody on this thread, including you, have provided any empircal evidence from any study that having a weekend off in March is going to improve performance in October. Bearing in mind that the competition is barely 6 weeks old and they've already had a bye, with another one coming up in two weeks.

None of this means that I'm against workload management and the periodisation of training, which are obviously necessary in any team sport that has a long season. But is resting players from matches really workload management? Will missing matches reduce injury or is the the type, intesity and nature of the training which should be managed and periodised? How will a Friday off on the 29th of March help players be at peak performance for a tournament in October/November?

Answer these questions with evidence and I'll be more than happy to concede.

My bold

Risk management is the overall process of identifying, assessing, and controlling risks. Relative to sport, this process is not possible without quantifying the incidence and severity of injuries, as well as associated risk factors and mechanisms. One important factor in that regard is to monitor training load. Recently, the relationship between training load and injuries in sport has been discussed. Challenging the dogma that high training loads cause high injury rates, many studies across a range of sports have shown that excellent fitness reduces injury risk. Well-structured intensive training can have protective effects against noncontact soft-tissue injuries. On the other hand, undertraining has also been related to increased injury risk.

https://journals.humankinetics.com/doi/pdf/10.1123/ijspp.2016-0207

And another study:

Specifically, restricting workloads and thereby reducing the stimulus for adaptation and perhaps also the opportunity for technical development may have paradoxically reduced players’ level of preparedness and compromised their resilience to the rigours of competition when these players progress to elite senior level. Similarly, other authors have raised the question of whether the practice of imposing enforced rest creates a sporadic pattern of loading that may be poorly tolerated by players, once more serving to increase injury risk rather than reducing it. The suggestion is that athletes respond much better to a relatively consistent level of loading, and so the large fluctuations in daily and weekly workloads that occur with enforced rest and player rotation may be an indirect cause of the injuries observed.

A similar study of professional rugby union in the United Kingdom reported that gross measures of weekly training volume (number of hours per week), based on questionnaires completed by the staff at each respective club, showed no statistical relationship with the number of injuries sustained by players during training or matches.4 Despite the lack of apparent association with rate of injury based on the data presented, the authors nevertheless recommended modifying the overall volume and content of training (specifically reducing the hours spent in activities associated with relatively higher injury rates, such as contact training), in order to reduce the severity of injuries.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...imply_Restricting_Workloads_Really_the_Answer
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
you're dreaming if you think I said that off-season means "no heavy training and heavy contact occur"

you're also dreaming if you think that the NRL/AFL off-season doesn't allow for those players to have their loads and conditioning managed better that what is allowed for in rugby unions off-season window.

It's silly to make direct comparisons between the codes in that regard because they vary significantly in how their seasons are structured, both by travel and duration.

So the "no off-season" comment is thus irrelevant because elite athletes spend more time in high intensity training than in games.

Yes, both those codes do manage workload during the season, but it is managed in the training regime, not by missing matches.

Read my previous response to KOB1987 for a more comprehensive response.
 

KOB1987

John Eales (66)
The whole point of the topic was that it was RA that has mandated the resting of players, not the Waratahs. Regardless of whether there is empirical evidence of it or not it's logical to manage the workload of players so that they don't burn out prior to the RWC. I'm sure there's more to it than sitting out a couple of games, but that's the only part that is visible to us.
 

Adam84

Rod McCall (65)
So the "no off-season" comment is thus irrelevant because elite athletes spend more time in high intensity training than in games.

Yes, both those codes do manage workload during the season, but it is managed in the training regime, not by missing matches.

Read my previous response to KOB1987 for a more comprehensive response.


No, its highly relevant..
Off-season/pre-season allows for tailored and specific workload management down to the individual, during the season the same level of specific training can't be achieved because of the requirement to prepare and recover from a game.

First article you linked discusses training loads and the link to injuries, the wallabies aren't been rested from training they are been rested from games, their training load is still sustained which is supported by that article.

Second article you linked discusses correlation between playing games and injuries, the wallabies aren't been rested from games to avoid injury, they are been rested to manage their training loads so they are achieving peak S&C building towards the RWC.

You're quick dismissal of the importance of the off-season window, and failure to acknowledge the significant advantage the NRL/AFL have in their off-season window is surprising.

I am by no means a subject matter expert, however in the past few years my company has worked with the Eels, Rabbitohs and Tigers in providing pre-season training packages, previously we have worked with the Tahs and Swans as well. Our focus is tailored towards the mental and psychological edge, however that training is layered with S&C. Within that you have training specific to the individual, some were no-contact, some no-running, and for some of the bigger guys had their conditioning training managed so they wouldn’t drop size. It’s a highly complex science these days, I think it’s easy to sit on the sidelines and criticise without fully understanding the complexities.
 

Adam84

Rod McCall (65)
Lastly I will add, mental fatigue is a variable difficult to quantify and specific to the individual, correlation/causation of fatigue and it’s link to S&C/Injury is still a developing area but one that organisations are increasingly becoming conscious and aware of and investing in.
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Well, I see not much has changed regarding how this forums runs for match threads where Aussie teams put in shit performances.

You can blather and drone and wank on about rest/no-rest periods as long as you like.

The fact remains these players won't improve their consistency of performance while the pathways remain stagnant. Adaptability is the key, and the Test-studded Tahs could identify and shut down a Crusaders game plan in decent conditions, but failed to dominate a pack of Super Rugby throwaways and half-baked internationals who have motor and dedication. And you could argue they didn't really beat them in Tokyo either.

And now, I shall return to the Subbies thread.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
No, its highly relevant..
Off-season/pre-season allows for tailored and specific workload management down to the individual, during the season the same level of specific training can't be achieved because of the requirement to prepare and recover from a game.

First article you linked discusses training loads and the link to injuries, the wallabies aren't been rested from training they are been rested from games, their training load is still sustained which is supported by that article.

Second article you linked discusses correlation between playing games and injuries, the wallabies aren't been rested from games to avoid injury, they are been rested to manage their training loads so they are achieving peak S&C building towards the RWC.

You're quick dismissal of the importance of the off-season window, and failure to acknowledge the significant advantage the NRL/AFL have in their off-season window is surprising.

I am by no means a subject matter expert, however in the past few years my company has worked with the Eels, Rabbitohs and Tigers in providing pre-season training packages, previously we have worked with the Tahs and Swans as well. Our focus is tailored towards the mental and psychological edge, however that training is layered with S&C. Within that you have training specific to the individual, some were no-contact, some no-running, and for some of the bigger guys had their conditioning training managed so they wouldn’t drop size. It’s a highly complex science these days, I think it’s easy to sit on the sidelines and criticise without fully understanding the complexities.

Yes it is complex.

I would point out that "off-season" involves active rest and no high intensity or contact work. The RL off-season is about 6-8 weeks depending on where the team came not the 4 months that you asserted. Then they are into pre-season, which is high intensity and heavy contact.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
The whole point of the topic was that it was RA that has mandated the resting of players, not the Waratahs. Regardless of whether there is empirical evidence of it or not it's logical to manage the workload of players so that they don't burn out prior to the RWC. I'm sure there's more to it than sitting out a couple of games, but that's the only part that is visible to us.

Your blind faith in RA and it's decisions is admirable. However, one could suggest that there's no particular evidence that we should have any faith that they know what they are doing.

It's logical to manage workload as I said in my previous post, it's just that recent empirical evidence suggests that the idea that rest prevents burnout and injuries is a fallacy.
 

jimmydubs

Dave Cowper (27)
I thought Cheiks was giving then work to do in the rest week. Which makes the last couple pages even more pointless, shouldve been arguing about whether whatever Cheiks is getting them to had any point.
Probably running some stairs, carrying a rope with their mouths taped shut while being chased by someone brandishing a golf club.
 

Adam84

Rod McCall (65)
Yes it is complex.

I would point out that "off-season" involves active rest and no high intensity or contact work. The RL off-season is about 6-8 weeks depending on where the team came not the 4 months that you asserted. Then they are into pre-season, which is high intensity and heavy contact.

No, off-season is certainly not active rest and no high intensity or contact work.

I don’t wish to turn this into a discussion on semantics, the aforementioned clubs my organisation have previously run programs for refer to the off-season as the calendar window outside of season actual, this encompasses the pre-season block which you keep referring to as a separate block.

My assertation that off-season is a 4 month window as you put it, give or take a few weeks depending on clubs final succes, is in line with how NRL clubs are managing their programs, not my own personal opinion.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Well, I see not much has changed regarding how this forums runs for match threads where Aussie teams put in shit performances.

You can blather and drone and wank on about rest/no-rest periods as long as you like.

The fact remains these players won't improve their consistency of performance while the pathways remain stagnant. Adaptability is the key, and the Test-studded Tahs could identify and shut down a Crusaders game plan in decent conditions, but failed to dominate a pack of Super Rugby throwaways and half-baked internationals who have motor and dedication. And you could argue they didn't really beat them in Tokyo either.

And now, I shall return to the Subbies thread.


To me, it was down to mentality, they weren't up for it and got what they deserved.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
I would argue this is also symptomatic of a narrow pathway.


and culture, not enough angry, not enough mongrel

Tirinui last week talked about the lack of focus on mental preparation in all the Super Rugby teams
 
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