Queensland Junior Rugby

[Karl]

Yeah, I get to deal with some of those myself. Thankfully they are a small minority.

 

[Dark Shark]

And this in my view is the issue with junior rugby at the moment. If you can't distinguish between a group of elite professional athletes trying to win the most converted trophy available to them and a group of teenage athletes who, may have aspirations to someday do the former but, realistically the majority will be playing for enjoyment of the game and a sense of achievement then there is an issue. Many parents and players putting too much emphasis on winning the competition rather than improving as individuals and as a team to be the best they can be.

In the Rugby Coaching thread Huge Jarse has a great post where he outlines the Canadian Long Term Athletic Development Pathway. This pathway is the basis of many athletic development programs around the world. It focuses on how to get the best out of athletes and developing them to reach their potential. Step 2 in that process is the "training to train" phase. This is where these players are currently situated in their development pathway. The focus here is teaching proper techniques and performance of these techniques on the field rather than a focus on results of games.

There are a couple of links below to the LTPD more specific to rugby

http://www.irbsandc.com/?module=2
http://www.irishrugby.ie/development/long-term_player_development.php

The way that Junior Rugby is currently structured, in Brisbane at least, there are a large number of competitions where teams are not evenly matched. Teams will regularly ask to be put in a lower division so that they have a chance of winning a title rather than competing against other teams of their level or slightly better. In my experience some other teams will be put in a higher grade based on rumour rather than fact. While the competitions managers try and make all of the divisions fair it requires them to be supplied with the correct information by the clubs. The school system is a much better system for players from the U13-U18 age groups where players can move up and down grades as their bodies and skill level develop, or don't as the case may be.

I am not having a go at you here Karl or your Club it is just comments like the one above don't sit well with me.

Yes, I thought HJ's post in the other thread was very good value. It is a pity more participants (I include parents as participants) do not get this perspective.

My experience with Junior Club Rugby in Brisbane, is that there are some (thankfully the minority) who use the system in attempt to build a reputation for themselves as a coach or their children as players. Just typing this, I do remember this going on when I was a lad and has probably been occurruring since Moses was playing for the Cairo Junior Alligators. The shennanigans that occur during the grading process are funny and disappointing all at the same time.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) for all concerned I have never really witnessed any long term benefits from this.

I believe the biggest issue in Brisbane Junior Club rugby is probably the lack of player depth at most clubs and the internal club grading procedures (or lack thereof) which is leading to a massive gulf in the playing standards of teams in many of the age groups. This year in the u13's the Div 1 winners were a mile in front of the rest and in the u14 Div 1, there were two teams a mile in front of the rest. In past years, I have witnessed the same with other age groups. I would not say this is the "fault" of the clubs that are enjoying the success but it does lead to some unhealthy long term occurrences for the sport in this town/state/ country.

A regular result of this is that some teams just elect to forfeit the game against these very good teams. So players miss games and good players are left regularly without matches. It also starts a culture where good players from other clubs believe the only way for representative selection is to go to the successful club, which then creates an even larger gap between the best and the rest of the teams. (have a look at some of the BJRU rep teams for the State Champs this year - there is at least one team that is from only one club). It then makes it difficult to develop players at other clubs and causes a downwards spiral and diminishing pool of talent and making it unattractive to the average punter on the street to take part in the sport.

From what I have seen, a cause of some of this imbalance has been a reluctance to grade properly within a club when the boys are reaching the ages of u12 and u13. Part of this can be attributed to not wanting to break up teams that have played together from u6's and u7's. Part can be attributed to clubs not making the "hard" calls. When clubs have enough players for four, five and six teams in an age group when they get to, or past 12 years of age and cannot be competitive in a Div 1 comp, I put it down to club's grading policy.

School rugby generally does not have the same issues. They usually have more depth than most clubs and are not afraid to grade properly (in most instances) to get the best teams at every level and coaches are not afraid to move players up and down during the season. And generally the players will play another team that they will be competitive against (rather than steamrolled) and they will enjoy it rather than be demoralised.

All this then tends to dictate that the best players are only developed from the narrow school systems (that regulalry play rugby) rather than the wider population.

 

[Dark Shark]

Separate topic, my boy is trying out for the City Districts u12 team tomorrow afternoon. He'd be playing up a year if he gets in so I don't have any expectations.

I knew some of the boys that trialled at same time for the team that Karl mentioned above and made it to the next stage, which was to trial for the u12 Met North team.

That team (u12 Met North)was subsequently selected to take part in the Queensland School Sports u12 Rugby State Championships being held this weekend at the Padua playing fields. The surprising thing and why I mention it, is that I am told it is apparently the first fully sanctioned School Champs for this age in the sport of Rugby.

Rugby League has been putting similar Champs on for u11 and u12 for many many years. I just cannot believe Rugby Union is only getting its act together now.

Is it important in the scheme of things? Probably not. It can be rare for talent (at a Senior level) to be "identified" at such an age. But I am pretty sure that by having rep pathways from a younger age probably increases the attraction of talent to a sport. And once you have them hooked them in, they rarely change codes.

 

[Karl]

I think it's really important.

The QRU / ARU miss so many opportunities. Look at my scenario. Ascot State School - full of Brothers players, club round the corner and yet does the School even offer the City Districts Rugby Union for participation? No. They put AFL up. Unless you were hunting for it you'd not have even known these trial games were on. It's a missed opportunity across the State School System.

 

[Johnny Blaze]

I think it's really important.

The QRU / ARU miss so many opportunities. Look at my scenario. Ascot State School - full of Brothers players, club round the corner and yet does the School even offer the City Districts Rugby Union for participation? No. They put AFL up. Unless you were hunting for it you'd not have even known these trial games were on. It's a missed opportunity across the State School System.

Karl, a number of players from the met west region also missed their district trials due to lack of communication. One school even held back their players, which has 2 Brisbane South Emerald U12 reps because of the local district interschool league comp which they lost anyway. Parents of another 3 boys from the same rep side were surprised when they heard that there was even a met west side for rugby in U12's.

 

[Johnny Blaze]

I knew some of the boys that trialled at same time for the team that Karl mentioned above and made it to the next stage, which was to trial for the u12 Met North team.

That team (u12 Met North)was subsequently selected to take part in the Queensland School Sports u12 Rugby State Championships being held this weekend at the Padua playing fields. The surprising thing and why I mention it, is that I am told it is apparently the first fully sanctioned School Champs for this age in the sport of Rugby.

Rugby League has been putting similar Champs on for u11 and u12 for many many years. I just cannot believe Rugby Union is only getting its act together now.

Is it important in the scheme of things? Probably not. It can be rare for talent (at a Senior level) to be "identified" at such an age. But I am pretty sure that by having rep pathways from a younger age probably increases the attraction of talent to a sport. And once you have them hooked them in, they rarely change codes.

Shark I think you are on the money, I have witnessed over the past couple of years a lot boys from the U11 and U12 age have switched to league because of the rep pathways. Most (rugby) boys that continue to make these league rep sides don't come back unless they fade off the radar of reps or NRL clubs, who offer development programs for 12-15 year olds, sometimes younger.

 

[Dark Shark]

In a big weekend of local rugby in Brisbane, I caught a couple of games at the Queensland Schools u12 Rugby Championships held at the (exceptionally prepared) Padua playing fields over the weekend.
The standard of rugby in the physicality, skills and gameplay at this age was incredible.
Because it is a schools based competition, it is open to anyone in any school who wishes to nominate and trial (yes, I heard a few could not trial because of school prohibiting or not even passing on info). This meant that not just club rugby players had the opportunity to take part.
And there were many rugby league players having a crack. I was talking to some Downs parents and they estimated about a third of their team were rugby league players. And the boys and parents were saying that they were enjoying it so much that they would be more likely to be playing rugby union in future rather than league.
While on league, talking to other parents whose sons also competed in the Qld Schools u12 Rugby League comp in June, they believe that the quality of play in the Rugby Union tournament was of a higher level because it was not just relying on the physical side to crash the ball through and more reliance on the whole of the team in union rather than a couple of “stars”.
The most incredible game that I saw on Saturday afternoon was between the only two undefeated teams remaining after most of the pool games had been played. The teams were Met West and Met North.
Why it was incredible, is because the Met North team just demolished the next best team in the comp with almost mistake free rugby to win 42 to nil. The Met North forwards were not just big, but physical and direct in their pick and drives, protected the ball so well and when ready, fed it out to their backs. They mixed up the backline moves and if it was not the odd crash ball by the biggest (and skillful) in-centre in the comp, they spread it wide to fast and skilled wingers or full back chiming in. One play went through countless phases from the Met North 22 all the way up the field for a try without one mistake being detected by the (v. good) ref.
Met North ended up going through the pool rounds undefeated and won the Grand Final easily.
Only two negatives in my opinion was the tendency for the half backs to throw in second row feeds into the scrum (almost like watching rugby league sometimes) and there were not enough districts competing (only six for this tournament), particularly Gold Coast who traditionally have strong junior programmes.
However, the positives far outweighed the negatives. Boys from each district supported other districts, boys from different schools got the opportunity to play and develop friendships with players who they had previously only seen as opposition and league players were introduced and enjoyed the game of rugby union.

 

[Karl]

Good to hear. Thanks for posting.

My son tried out for Met North (a year early, he's only u11 this year) and didnt make it so hearing that they were at that sort of standard will be good feedback for him and will Ket him know what he needs to aim for.

He won Best Forward in his Div 1 team but you could see on the day of the trial that there were some big units and some mobile units and a couple big, mobile units.

I wonder what clubs were represented in that Met North side?

 

[Dark Shark]

The tournament programme I saw only disclosed the schools the boys came from.

In the Met North team there seemed to be a good cross representation across schools rather than a cluster from one or two schools. From memory, the schools with more than one player included Terrace (4), Nudgee (3), Marist Ashgrove (2 or 3), St Pats (2 or 3), BGS (2) and then about 7 or 8 other schools (mainly state schools). The coaches were from St Pats and Padua.

From the boys I know who play club rugby (and there were many in the team who did not play club) they came from Brothers, Albany Creek, Norths, Ashgrove, Riverside and possibly one from Pine Rivers. Some of the bigger units in this u12 Met North team play in the BJRU u13 Div 1 club comp with players more their own size (so Karl, your son was doing very well to mix it with these guys in the trials).

In the Met North forwards there were particularly two big, very strong and very mobile units (no. 4 and no. 8) that I heard weigh in around 75kg to 80kg (and above 170cm tall) who were outstanding. They were as fast, if not faster as most of the backline, cut the opposition to threads in attack and defence and worked hard over the ball. Saying that, the front rows and most of the forward pack were also very solid and had an excellent work rate. However, the no. 7 was tiny by comparison, yet was very fast and fearless (making some great grass cutting tackles) around the paddock and provided as much value as every other forward. So the selectors seemed to accommodate a range of sizes in the forwards as long as their workrate was high, they continually backed each other up, won the contact and attacked all the time with ball in hand or in defence.

I have seen a bit of rugby in this age level over the years and thinking about it as I write this post, the game I described above by Met North against Met West was one of the finest displays I have seen from a team at this age ever (particularly given the good quality of the opposition and how they just demolished them).

 

[Karl]

Is anyone on this site associated with the Chatswood Juniors?

See:
\
"An U11 Chatswood touring team from Sydney has organized a game at Easts next Saturday. Brothers is going to put together a team from all of our U11 teams to play against the Sydney team and Easts. If your child is available for a game next Saturday morning (6/10) can you let me know please. It should be a lot of fun and will be all finished by around 1pm. Lunch will be provided. We will probably have a training run next Thursday afternoon at Brothers."

Pretty cool that an u11 team is on tour. I bet they're guns

 

[Jets]

Sunnybank used to hold regular tours for their U12's (Sydney, Canberra or Melbourne) and their U15's (NZ).

 

[Dark Shark]

Everton Park have taken their u12's to NZ. I think Albany Creek took their u15's to the UK and France this year and have done a French tour a couple of years ago, also with the u15's

 

[Eggsie]

New Zealand club College Rifles send their combined under 13s on tour to Oz each year I think. For all clubs that organise these tours, the efforts of the parents in organising and fundraising cannot be praised enough.@Jets I agree with your sentiment but have also seen a young team that aspired to be the best they can be , supported by some great coaching, put in a spectacular performance this year in under 13s. The boys in this team were graded individually into it (and my sons were graded out of it so I should have an axe to grind but don't ). I believe that club and school both add to the players growth , and agree with what you say about depth. I am often surprised to hear how many school players don't play club, cause I think the longer season allows the boys more time to develop their skills and the finals system is more of a experience.

 

[Dark Shark]

For the record, the QJRU State Championships were just held in Toowoomba over the last three days for the u13 to u17 age groups. These are regional based championships (with players selected in their region from the club system). The BJRU generally fields four teams now labeled Red (previously North), Green (South), Blue (West) and Gold (East). Other regional teams include Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast, Townsville, Darling Downs, Bushrangers (Central and North Queensland). Victoria fielded a team in the u14 age group and PNG a team in the u17 age group.

All up, 122 games were played over three days, with most of the semi finals and finals held today.

The State Champions and Runners up for each age group is as follows:-

u13 BJRU Red 17 d BJRU Green 12
u14 BJRU Red 22 d BJRU Blue 0
u15 BJRU Green 20 d Sunshine Coast 5
u16 BJRU Green 13 d BJRU Blue 10
u17 BJRU Red 11 d BJRU Green 10

 

[en_force_er]

How the Vics go in U14s? I read they made it past the pool stage at least.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

How does this work? QJRU run State Champs when the top 46 U16 players (in theory) are down our way representing QRU at National Championships?

There would be hell to pay if that occurred down here.

 

[Dark Shark]

How the Vics go in U14s? I read they made it past the pool stage at least.

The Victorian team came third in the u14. They were one of the strongest teams in the age group and were considered one of the teams to best but stumbled in the semis.

 

[Dark Shark]

How does this work? QJRU run State Champs when the top 46 U16 players (in theory) are down our way representing QRU at National Championships?

There would be hell to pay if that occurred down here.

I think I have put in a previous post that the u16 qld teams are a schools based selection. This automatically ensures every player in school (now probably 99.9% of players) is eligible for selection regardless if they play school or club or both. It operate separately from the club based QJRU.

For the Brisbane teams, about eight or nine players had to withdraw from the State Champs when selected for the QLD teams. While there was some rolling of eyes, most seemed to understand that the Nationals were priority and the crowded holiday tournament calendar in July and September meant there would be clashes somewhere.

The low number of boys selected in both tournaments probably reflects the priority put on schools based competition. But also I know boys who try to do both and rep can mean they play up to 40 games in a season.

The QJRU tournament presents another pathway to get regional rep experience from u13 to u17 which can only lift the playing standards of the young men from this state.

 

[en_force_er]

Anybody happy to keep an eye on the U15 and U17 state tournaments that are happening later this week on the Sunny Coast (I believe)?

 

[Dark Shark]

Anybody happy to keep an eye on the U15 and U17 state tournaments that are happening later this week on the Sunny Coast (I believe)?

Info comes second hand:-

Results from this morning...

u17 Victoria 19 (3 tries) defeated Qld 7 (1 try)

u15 Victoria 14 (2 tries) defeated Sunshine Coast President's team 13 (2 tries)