QLD GPS Rugby 2016

[Garry Owens]

I believe that if the kids want to play 5 kick let them. Rugby, has done poorly in the past in attracting these kids and I don't think Qld rugby throwing money at them will assist.

Let them go and have fun with their friends. Spend the money at club level and higher schools level. In terms of mixing the teams, great in theory, don't know if I trust the AIC or CSS process though.


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What don't you trust exactly ?

What if the QRU Development Guys expanded their scouting to attend and evaluate more fully and had decision making capacity over construction of these trial teams

In a perfect world all boys from U15 and up should be tagged and databased and evaluated on an ongoing basis , so that , by the time you want to run Schoolboy trials you have a well developed idea about what type of teams you want to put together

You'd actually start this process at U15 JGC level . You could expand the idea into a ranking system and run roster constraints on each team based on ranking points of each player , so that , the construction of these teams were based around much like how a draft / cap operates . This ensures the fair dispersal of talent across the teams.

It's actually a great grassroots / entry level opportunity for young , talented and motivated DO's / Scouts to have input into the construction of these teams that ultimately as a training and development exercise may serve them well if they have " front office" careers in Rugby organisations

If you look at quality Sports organisations around the world and some of the best Managerial talent within - a lot of them cut their professional teeth in scouting and then roster construction

 

[The sage]

To be fair ....

Simple Solution - ditch GPS and AIC Rep teams and CIS team and mix 6 teams and level the playing field , at least perceptively , to encourage the best of the best individual talent to nominate and participate

Why change something that isn't broken. Let League win the turf war. QLD Rugby has limited resources, let it be spent on the higher honours, not on kids who don't know if they will play rugby at 15, most of which (greater than 75%) won't be playing either sport when they are 25.

The other issue AIC Schools are dealing with in their broader catchment are the increasing rate of Rugby League players that they are drawing in over the last 10 to 15 years and how Rugby League is winning the turf war at junior levels

I think if you look at the figures: the growth of both Rugby and League have fallen in numbers relative to the population growth. Whether that is financial or kids not wanting to play full contact sport, lounge lizards or other activities, both code have suffered relative to population growth. So we are both eating from the ever shrinking pie.

The U15 JGC was a real eye opener this year that underscores some of the points that I play wing raised.

The Junior Gold Program is a ARU initiative to gain a larger population of players at that impressionable age (where they don't know whether Union or League is right for them) so the talent scouts/selectors can pick them up (so to speak). You will find that the elite class or already identified talent will not play in JGP, therefore this is only part of the pathway.

Some of the best talent on show who ultimately played QLD U15 were AIC boys who were Rugby / League players that could just as easily ( and probably more likely to ) flip the bird to this outdated GPS v AIC concept come Opens and play Confraternity Shield ( they are still playing Rep Schools League and Rugby in the Met system in U15 ) and they are still connected to Club League - and ( I'm speculating ) are more socio - economically connected to the League heartlands and ethos

Let them flip the bird. Most of the schoolboy talent (not all) has been identified and "housed" by that time. Even those who are going to play in the GPS competition, funded by their League masters have their place.

The QRU need to wake up and work better with the associations to try and take simple steps to level these playing fields ( a start as suggested above )

As determined above, no they don't. They need to develop club rugby and other higher honours, then waste too much at the u15 level or schoolboys level.

 

[The sage]

What don't you trust exactly ?

What if the QRU Development Guys expanded their scouting to attend and evaluate more fully and had decision making capacity over construction of these trial teams

In a perfect world all boys from U15 and up should be tagged and databased and evaluated on an ongoing basis , so that , by the time you want to run Schoolboy trials you have a well developed idea about what type of teams you want to put together

You'd actually start this process at U15 JGC level . You could expand the idea into a ranking system and run roster constraints on each team based on ranking points of each player , so that , the construction of these teams were based around much like how a draft / cap operates . This ensures the fair dispersal of talent across the teams.

It's actually a great grassroots / entry level opportunity for young , talented and motivated DO's / Scouts to have input into the construction of these teams that ultimately as a training and development exercise may serve them well if they have " front office" careers in Rugby organisations

If you look at quality Sports organisations around the world and some of the best Managerial talent within - a lot of them cut their professional teeth in scouting and then roster construction

I just don't trust their selections. I prefer it be separate, I think that brings competition and that brings results.

The rest of what you are saying is a waste of resource and even more pressure on what are generally kids. Keep it simple. In a world of unlimited resource and robotic children your idea would be fine, but that's not our world yet.

What the system wants eventually is a good Wallaby/S16 teams and a larger group that has an affinity with a sport and a social positive for society (have fun and mateship in playing or being associated with a sport).

 

[Stripes]

Is GT trialling this weekend? if so, where.
Is BGS trialling this weekend? if so, where.

BGS v BSHS at BSHS Fursden rd on Saturday.
1sts kick off at 12pm.


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[Garry Owens]

Actually Sage ........it is the World . At least the World of Professional Sports.

But you are right when you say it is not "our" World . Yet.

Rugby lags waaaaaay behind - not only other Football Codes in this Country but , together with other Football Codes in this Country what the reality is in tagging and developing elite junior talent in other Sports all around the world ( think basketball, baseball, Soccer )

If Rugby is under resourced as you attest then it is the responsibility ( and challenge ) of the Game's Administrators to do something about it and find the resources to "get in the game" and pursue excellence.

Yours seems to be a nickel and dime approach where the peanuts do indeed find the monkeys

 

[The sage]

Actually Sage ....it is the World . At least the World of Professional Sports.

But you are right when you say it is not "our" World . Yet.

Rugby lags waaaaaay behind - not only other Football Codes in this Country but , together with other Football Codes in this Country what the reality is in tagging and developing elite junior talent.

If Rugby is under resourced as you attest then it is the responsibility ( and challenge ) of the Game's Administrators to do something about it and find the resources to "get in the game" and pursue excellence.

Yours seems to be a nickel and dime approach where the peanuts do indeed find the monkeys

Maybe it is nickel and dime stuff, hence the term "grassroots". So you are saying that all Rugby people are monkeys?? I don't think that. Yes both League and Union lag the other codes by miles; they have more resource; we cannot simply wave the magic wand and take what is not earned. It will take time.

However Rugby to a degree has differentiated itself by some positions i.e. props - the body shape is not usually required in Soccer or AFL, and 7's Rugby (which I think is fantastic given where it was 10 years ago).

Administrators are doing a reasonably good job, at least Rugby is on the map (something that couldn't be said 40 years ago). The resources are limits and hence my comments above about 15-17 year old schoolboys and the ability to fund such "projects".

 

[Garry Owens]

And by the way......how does keeping the status quo promote competition ?

Clearly , there is no competition between GPS and AIC Schools so why not get the State Bodies involved to balance up the trial teams

If the Associations would submit to working with the QRU who in turn would submit to working with the ARU in triangular co-operation , and whereby this same concept would repeat via Club/Regional>State>National , where objectives and strategies were aligned, then there may be a chance of balance and co-ordination which is surely the forerunner to efficiency in resources on a pathway to excellence

Seems as though there are too many kingdoms to protect

The way it works at the moment is left in the hands of a few Private Schools who all individually wax and wane at any time about whether they decide they are "going for it " in the arms race or not

Last year there were 20 boys selected from Brisbane GPS Schools I- out of 46 available spaces in the Australian Schoolboys and Australian Barbarians - 43%

Of those 20 boys - 14 (70% ) came from programs that were ( unofficially ) ranked "Top 3" at the start of the season.

The disconnect , lack of energy, inability ..........whatever you want to call it for the QRU to get in the game seems evident ( and I have personally witnessed it up close ) and it seems an easier road just to leave it to a few in the same hackneyed way of doing things

Rugby can't take what is not earned you say ?

1. This seems incongruent with fat cat pay checks and over-officialdom that seems to permeate National and State Ranks . Brett Papworth raised some pretty interesting facts and figures on this recently . I will try and find the article.

2. What about "the top end" of Officialdom creating the earn instead of taking the burn. At a National Level ...the BMW deal isn't a bad start but there is a shit tonne more that is needed to be done

 

[The sage]

Garry Owens it would be helpful that instead of starting some new point to a discussion, that you argue the existing points to a degree.

Otherwise it becomes pointless.

 

[The sage]

And by the way..how does keeping the status quo promote competition ?

Clearly , there is no competition between GPS and AIC Schools so why not get the State Bodies involved to balance up the trial teams

If the Associations would submit to working with the QRU who in turn would submit to working with the ARU in triangular co-operation , and whereby this same concept would repeat via Club/Regional>State>National , where objectives and strategies were aligned, then there may be a chance of balance and co-ordination which is surely the forerunner to efficiency in resources on a pathway to excellence

The way it works at the moment is left in the hands of a few Private Schools who all individually wax and wane at any time about whether they decide they are "going for it " in the arms race or not

Last year there were 20 boys selected from Brisbane GPS Schools I- out of 46 available spaces in the Australian Schoolboys and Australian Barbarians - 43%

Of those 20 boys - 14 (70% ) came from programs that were ( unofficially ) ranked "Top 3" at the start of the season.

The disconnect , lack of energy, inability ....whatever you want to call it for the QRU to get in the game seems evident ( and I have personally witnessed it up close ) and it seems an easier road just to leave it to a few in the same hackneyed way of doing things

Schoolboy Rugby is a different outfit from the QRU; and all I'm saying is that the resources are limited and those resources are probably better spent at club and higher levels. It may be arkaine, it may be out of touch, for you and some others, but it's working.

Australia #2, u20 probably #5, 7's #4. Probably a reasonable reflection of Australian sport on a global stage. It could be better (and I want it better), but that isn't going to happen overnight and with the resources I don't think it should be to resolved at u15 rugby or with a AIC v GPS discussion. As long as all the players are there, then select who is there. If kids don't want to play Rugby, you can't make them.

Also think with the playing population in Australia, it seems that we will only dominate over certain generations rather than consistently. A very good achievement given the playing population.

 

[Garry Owens]

OK ........so correct me if I am wrong but essentially you are saying that :

1. The current GPS v AIC format is acceptable and it promotes competition

2. That if AIC kids don't want to participate than fuck ém

3. That mixed trial teams are OK in theory but you don't trust AIC or CSS Selectors to get it right

4. That independent overlay of The QRU to assist in selection / review for balanced trial teams for what ultimately is a QLD Schoolboys Team is a couldn't be arsed waste of resources proposition

Is this a fair summary of your position ?

 

[Garry Owens]

And yes I well understand the territories and lines of demarcation that define dysfunctionality between Schools /Associations and Administrative Bodies

It's probably why we don't look like a puncher's chance of beating the All Blacks anytime soon ( and haven't for a considerable period of time )

 

[The sage]

OK ....so correct me if I am wrong but essentially you are saying that :

1. The current GPS v AIC format is acceptable and it promotes competition. Correct.

2. That if AIC kids don't want to participate than fuck ém. No that there choice. Remember that only about 10-15% of the current players (15-17) will not be playing at 25, whether through injury, lack of need or lifestyle. Therefore why waste the resource at this level, better at club rugby and higher levels.

3. That mixed trial teams are OK in theory but you don't trust AIC or CSS Selectors to get it right. Based upon certain years selections, correct. But this is not a major factor (as it is only one or two, which everyone could argue until the cows come home). I just don't think changing it will provide a different outcome. I don't think the model is broken. Non-GPS players are selected doesn't matter how much they were beaten in the competition. I don't think the point you made will make any difference to the selected players.

4. That independent overlay of The QRU to assist in selection / review for balanced trial teams for what ultimately is a QLD Schoolboys Team is a couldn't be arsed waste of resources proposition. Could be; as long as the available talent is at the trials, then then 96 plus % of the time, the correct team will be selected, UNDER THE CURRENT SYSTEM. I think the system as it stands now is pretty efficient.

Is this a fair summary of your position ?

 

[The sage]

And yes I well understand the territories and lines of demarcation that define dysfunctionality between Schools /Associations and Administrative Bodies

It's probably why we don't look like a puncher's chance of beating the All Blacks anytime soon ( and haven't for a considerable period of time )

We will beat them at some stage. But the demographic probably won't allow it at the moment.

Look back over history and the times that we have beaten them is when we have appropriately skilled, HUMBLE intelligent men, who are not willing to take no for an answer or a backward step. When we get this then we may beat them again.

 

[Garry Owens]

John Eales , a Marist alumni , was one of those types of men .

In fact , I think it's fair to say he was the poster boy for that type of man.

Just sayin

 

[I play wing]

I just don't trust their selections. I prefer it be separate, I think that brings competition and that brings results.

What the system wants eventually is a good Wallaby/S16 teams and a larger group that has an affinity with a sport and a social positive for society (have fun and mateship in playing or being associated with a sport).

So you don't trust their selections. What makes you think that GPS selectors know rugby any better than AIC/CSS selectors. This is exactly why the boys are not turning up to trial. They don't trust that those currently at the helm will give them a fair and equitable chance at making a state side.

Secondly, I totally agree that the system wants a good wallaby side and a large grassroots base but this will not happen when so many quality players are leaving do due the simple and unavoidable fact that there is a bias against them due to the school they come from. Inevitably, like anything in society people will leave when they believe there is no chance for them to develop and achieve there potential.

 

[I play wing]

We will beat them at some stage. But the demographic probably won't allow it at the moment.

Look back over history and the times that we have beaten them is when we have appropriately skilled, HUMBLE intelligent men, who are not willing to take no for an answer or a backward step. When we get this then we may beat them again.

This demographic is present at in the AIC comp but is not being seen or allowed to grow due to the aforementioned.

 

[I play wing]

I believe that if the kids want to play 5 kick let them. Rugby, has done poorly in the past in attracting these kids and I don't think Qld rugby throwing money at them will assist.

Money might not but a removal of bias and opportunity to grow and achieve sure will.

 

[The sage]

O'k, I play wing, I think the system should be left the same including selection. If boys don't turn up that's their decision, even though I think they should and have a crack.

I do not have figures about the one's that have turned to League (from Union only) and made the Kangaroo's or the Broncos; do you? Therefore if you don't know this figure then this is an unsubstantiated point. Irrespective of the figure, if they want to play league "because of their friends", let them. If they were committed to Rugby they would be there.

Point 3. I don't think the demographic in the current AIC competition will be any better off in Rugby or League; the attrition rate over the next 10 years, assuming that of the past, most of them will not be playing either sport at that time.

Finally, what bias? If AIC or CSS win and do it comfortably then they will be selected. Irrespective of their performance they will get some players in the schoolboys team. I don't know of many who are selected by not showing up; I don't think that is the right attitude.

In essence guys, schoolboy rugby is great, but it must be remembered to keep it in the perspective of the overall rugby family. It is the first step of probably 4-5 before you have the skill and maturity to play, higher level club rugby or s16 or for Australia.

 

[The sage]

Don't worry, I play wing, there were several others who play GPS that weren't selected because their League master won't let them. So it's all good.

 

[The sage]

John Eales , a Marist alumni , was one of those types of men .

In fact , I think it's fair to say he was the poster boy for that type of man.

Just sayin

And I don't think he played Australian Schoolboys, neither did Rod McCall; probably both the finest examples for Qld if not Australia and World rugby.