Prop Dilemma

[Joe Mac]

Just read this quote from an interview with Ben Alexander on rugby heaven;

'You just look at the quality props who have been left behind in Al Baxter, Matt Dunning, Sekope Kepu, Guy Shepherdson, Nick Henderson, Tim Fairbrother - there's a lot of depth in Australian front rows now,'' Alexander said.

I read this and think; actually, apart from Ben Robinson I would take almost any of these guys over the guys heading over to Europe for the EOYT. In fact, I think that these prop's we are leaving at home, could easily devastate the front row we are taking with us. Especcially seeing Alexander has lost 6kg's since being injured...

What the f*ck are Deans and Nucifora doing!

 

[dobduff11]

"What the f*ck are Deans and Nucifora doing!"- crack?

 

[dobduff11]

and on a serious note I would have taken baxter and maybe kepu from that list, i dont think the others are that good

 

[Joe Mac]

I would take anyone over Ma'afu except Dunning

 

[RugbyReg]

no mention of Greg Holmes.

Its just a sign of depth for mine. Baxter hasn't played for yonks so doesn't deserve to go.

Arguments can be made for Fairbrother and Kepu, but also Weeks, Tilse and Palmer. Ma'afu was effectively picked by default, and Deans won't drop him quickly.

 

[Langthorne]

usually takes about 25 poor test performances to get moved to the bench.

 

[Scarfman]

Completely agree with JM. Everyone knows the A-team is the Bens. After that, I haven't understood what the coaching staff are doing. We all know about bench-gate, but what about Weeks-gate? Those would be among the two biggest mysteries for me this year. Add in the raping of Al, and you've got a crew that doesn't seem to know what's going on. I wonder what Noriega's role is in selections?

 

[vidiot]

I wonder what Noriega's role is in selections?

"Ya smash 'em"

 

[fatprop]

Ma'afu was effectively picked by default, and Deans won't drop him quickly.

Baxter enjoyed the same luck for a while

 

[TOCC]

I wouldnt at all be surprised to see done of those older props back in the frame of things next year, from a reds perspective, im interested to see what a injury free Greg Holmes can do, this will be his first off-season in a few years where he is injury free

 

[Lee Grant]

It may be proper to quote myself in this instance. On the Reds thread Red Rooster mentioned that in France teams had to have an extra prop on their bench - 8 reserves not 7. I replied:



Correct, they've had it a few years now - which means they have a matchday 23.

The significant thing this season is that the other tournaments have followed suit. Now teams in the Heineken Cup, Magners League, Aviva Premiership, and Amlin CC all have to have 3 front rowers on the bench.

It's the sensible thing to do because it reduces the number of occasions when uncontested scrums have to be used (since one more injury is 'required').

It will spread to the SH as sure as God made little apples and I'm picking that after the 2011 RWC that the IRB will require all professional teams to have such a bench. Amateur rugby should stay as it is.

We in Oz should therefore get off our arses. If this doesn't make the ARU skew things so that more elite props are produced and properly trained, I don't know what will.

Incidentally, it is quite common in the NH to see two props replacing the other two props at the same time after 50 moinutes or so. Starting props seem to have a springier step as they know that it's on the cards that they will need just 50 minutes of petrol in every game. The SAffers will love it as they often had 4 props in their matchday 22s anyway.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

It may be proper to quote myself in this instance. On the Reds thread Red Rooster mentioned that in France teams had to have an extra prop on their bench - 8 reserves not 7. I replied:



Correct, they've had it a few years now - which means they have a matchday 23.

The significant thing this season is that the other tournaments have followed suit. Now teams in the Heineken Cup, Magners League, Aviva Premiership, and Amlin CC all have to have 3 front rowers on the bench.

It's the sensible thing to do because it reduces the number of occasions when uncontested scrums have to be used (since one more injury is 'required').

It will spread to the SH as sure as God made little apples and I'm picking that after the 2011 RWC that the IRB will require all professional teams to have such a bench. Amateur rugby should stay as it is.

The Shute Shield played this rule this year. 6 front rowers in a 23 man list.

 

[RugbyReg]

I wonder if this glut of props, well first, do we have a glut of props?

Reds - Holmes, Daley, Slipper, Shepherdson with a bit of Anae thrown in.
Tahs - Kepu, Baxter, Robinson, Tilse, Ryan
Brums - Alexander, Ma'afu, Palmer, Jerry Y
Rebs - Weeks, (Sommerville), Blake, Henderson
Force - Cowan, Fairbrother, Dunning, Longbottom, Alo-Emile

Plus a smattering of others in Academy programs and playing club footy, so I am confident to declare that our propping depth is at a fairly healthy level - perhaps the best ever.

Hooking, however, perhaps not. I mean we have some adequate front runners in Fainga'a, TPN and Moore. Some able back up in Hanson, Fitzpatrick and Edmonds, and a couple of young sparks with potential in Charles and Whitaker. But you only have to look at the Rebels and the Force squad, and consider who is the #3 at the Tahs and the Brumbies and perhaps the question very much is should one or two of our young props consider moving into the middle?

 

[Eyes and Ears]

I wonder if this glut of props, well first, do we have a glut of props?

Reds - Holmes, Daley, Slipper, Shepherdson with a bit of Anae thrown in.
Tahs - Kepu, Baxter, Robinson, Tilse, Ryan
Brums - Alexander, Ma'afu, Palmer, Jerry Y
Rebs - Weeks, (Sommerville), Blake, Henderson
Force - Cowan, Fairbrother, Dunning, Longbottom, Alo-Emile

Plus a smattering of others in Academy programs and playing club footy, so I am confident to declare that our propping depth is at a fairly healthy level - perhaps the best ever.

Hooking, however, perhaps not. I mean we have some adequate front runners in Fainga'a, TPN and Moore. Some able back up in Hanson, Fitzpatrick and Edmonds, and a couple of young sparks with potential in Charles and Whitaker. But you only have to look at the Rebels and the Force squad, and consider who is the #3 at the Tahs and the Brumbies and perhaps the question very much is should one or two of our young props consider moving into the middle?

Personally there is still a glut in both positions. I think the only props who could claim to dominant at S15 level more often than not are Alexander, Robinson and Baxter (and he has had more bad days than good at Test level). 4 of our 8 best hookers have barely played Super rugby.

 

[Gnostic]

I would also add that there are a few Club props and possibly a hooker or two who may be able to step up to Super level.

For example, even with my bias taken into account I could see a player like Taukeiaho making the step up. Against the Woodies for example he scrummed against Robinson, Dunning and Alexander in the one game and was solid against them all.

 

[Gnostic]

Personally there is still a glut in both positions. I think the only props who could claim to dominant at S15 level more often than not are Alexander, Robinson and Baxter (and he has had more bad days than good at Test level). 4 of our 8 best hookers have barely played Super rugby.

Alexander didn't have a good S14. The Ponies did him no favours moving him back to LHP IMO.

 

[Hawko]

I wonder if this glut of props, well first, do we have a glut of props?

Reds - Holmes, Daley, Slipper, Shepherdson with a bit of Anae thrown in.
Tahs - Kepu, Baxter, Robinson, Tilse, Ryan
Brums - Alexander, Ma'afu, Palmer, Jerry Y
Rebs - Weeks, (Sommerville), Blake, Henderson
Force - Cowan, Fairbrother, Dunning, Longbottom, Alo-Emile

Plus a smattering of others in Academy programs and playing club footy, so I am confident to declare that our propping depth is at a fairly healthy level - perhaps the best ever.

Hooking, however, perhaps not. I mean we have some adequate front runners in Fainga'a, TPN and Moore. Some able back up in Hanson, Fitzpatrick and Edmonds, and a couple of young sparks with potential in Charles and Whitaker. But you only have to look at the Rebels and the Force squad, and consider who is the #3 at the Tahs and the Brumbies and perhaps the question very much is should one or two of our young props consider moving into the middle?

Looking more closely at the list:

Reds look to be well balanced and Shepherdson had some good days in Shute (plus the occasional not so good day). I think Link would be thinking of starting Holmes and Shepherdson against the good scrums and Daley and Slipper against the weaker ones and then see how the season develops. Fainga'a is not the pushiest hooker around but he does well in open play.

Tahs are strong in the first three and Tilse was great at the end of the S14, but at the end of Shute he was getting pushed around. Ryan was not so good when he stepped up at the end of Shute. If Kepu, Baxter and Robinson stay healthy they'll push a lot of scrums around, but if they are injured it could get ugly. TPN and Whittaker are a huge strength and will help the scrummaging along strongly.

The Brumbies clearly intend to play Alexander at LHP as they really have three THP's and only Jerry at LHP. This is a terrible outcome for the Wallabies as Alexander needs all the time at THP that he can get, particularly after such a long injury timeout. Palmer is possibly a great talent, but right now if its not scrummaging he doesn't rate top 20. Ma'afu is our fouth or fifth best THP and that's being generous. I can see some teams deliberately knocking on just to have a go at them. The only blessing for them is they do have Moore at hooker (and Edmonds to seagul later on).

Weeks and Somerville will be strong for the Rebels, but if they lose one of those then they are done for. Henderson has never dominated anyone and as for Blake, when I watched him in Top 14 he could barely jog from stoppage to stoppage. The coaches need to strip 20kg off him and get him fit. Not sure about the hookers but I do have faith in McQueen. Without him I would be predicting a horrible first year but he is the nuts!

For the Force, Fairbrother was OK this year and the other three couldn't push a marshmallow. They will get a lot of hidings this year unless Tucky gets some of his old form back. Charles will be good but he's very inexperienced.

So lets not get too revved up about how much depth we have across the front row. A few injuries and Ma'afu could be our leading THP and that's a scary thought. When the Wallaby hooker is under so much pressure he can't even strike for the put-in then you know we are in trouble. Given that Alexander will play LHP, the THP's who I expect to go well are Baxter and Weeks, maybe Shepherdson, Slipper and Fairbrother. That is nowhere near a glut, more like a famine.

 

[TOCC]

I agree with much of your statement there Hawko, i do however think you are greatly underestimating the Brumbies scrum, i admittedly didnt watch all there games in 2010 but from the ones i did watch, there scrum was generally speaking quite good.

In retrospect we are building form a low base in terms of quality props in Australia, however 2011 is looking like the best in a long time for Australian Rugby.

 

[Gnostic]

I agree with much of your statement there Hawko, i do however think you are greatly underestimating the Brumbies scrum, i admittedly didnt watch all there games in 2010 but from the ones i did watch, there scrum was generally speaking quite good.

In retrospect we are building form a low base in terms of quality props in Australia, however 2011 is looking like the best in a long time for Australian Rugby.

According to Spiro and the S14.com stats at the end of the S14 the Tahs and the Brumbies scrums has the most re-sets in the comp.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Alexander didn't have a good S14. The Ponies did him no favours moving him back to LHP IMO.

Perhaps not in the tight, but he was magnificent in the loose this year I thought.