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Pom Vs Wallabies

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hi-jinks

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naza said:
hi-jinks said:
There you go Naza, like a true Aussie - you went and goy obsessed with the "balance of the backrow" BS and the preocupation with height. I didn't see anyone complaining about Kefu and Finegan being too short in the lineout. They were there to get across the gain line, just like Willie O and Dan Manu before them.
As for Tim Gavin, may I be so bold to smash another Tim Gavin myth? Tim Gavin was always a 2nd rower playing as a no.8. He was an ordinary no.8 truth be known, good second rower though. Very good lineout jumper @ 2 as well.
Then again, at the time the only other option was Troy Coker - so Gav was starting to look a good option.
Mind you the 2nd rowers pre Eales were hardly athletes (Fitsimons, Cutler, Campbell) Gav looked frightfully fast compared to those guys.

Finegan was 6'6" ! He didn't lack for size.

Balance in the loosies makes complete and utter sense these days. I never thought Willie O, Gav & Manu were a great combo, they were only a backrow mix cause Bob Dwyer was obsessed with size (Gav Morgan at blindside !), and Wilson was injured that year.

I don't think much of your Gavin at lock theory. He had terrific hands and good ball skills and a terrific workrate. If it weren't for injury, he'd be a much bigger name.

It's not a theory, he played a far whack of footy there.
The other myth is Finegans height, he is 6 3 being generous.
Don't tell me you believe "program sizes", they are always a joke of how ridiculous they can be made.
 

naza

Alan Cameron (40)
If Finegan is 6'3", then you're deadset 5'2".

Gav ended up at lock towards the end of his career due to age and the Tahs having star locks like Jono West & Sam Damoni. He had 47 caps for the Wallabies - 3 at lock, 44 at no8.
 
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hi-jinks

Guest
Lets just take a minute to refelect on the amazing career of Jono West. Hang on, he was a Gordon boy, so he was awesome!!
Lets pick on a Scotts poof.......maybe Tom Bowman? Didn't he really kick on!
 

Lindommer

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
formeropenside said:
Burke only ever won games with his kicking boot: I never rated him at all.

1998, third test against the ABs at the SFS. Burke badly dislocated his shoulder while scoring the winning try which gave us the 3-0 clean sweep. Latham was a very good fullback, unfortunately for him mostly in average or poor teams, but he wasn't a patch on Burke.

I was there that night, after being down 11-0 at half time we came back to win 19-16. Ah, the Macqueen era. :'( :'( :'(
 
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Spook

Guest
I think this thread should be split...Now back to the match...We will we win? :nta:
 
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Turban

Guest
Spook said:
I think this thread should be split...Now back to the match...We will we win? :nta:

Will we win? My hopes are at an all time low, so i guess we have a decent change of impressing me, but will we win, I doubt it. With our forward pack looking remarkable similar to the disaster of our last twickers encounter, I'm very worried.

This year has been such a mixed bag I really have no idea how it will turn out. Lets hope we can play like in Bledisloe 1, or our 1st test vs the Boks. If we play like we did last week, or the 3rd game vs the Boks, or bledisloe 2, we're stuffed.

As usual I really know very little about the Pom's too, which worries me more.

In short, I'm a very worried man!
 
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Spook

Guest
What I don't understand is how we could bitch slap the Saffas at the breakdown this year and yet get smashed by the Poms at the WC.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
We have nothing to lose here Turbin. The english press expect us to get hammered. So the pressure is off.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
As a neutral here and I am speaking as a fellow SH broer this is very important for the Wallabies beat the Poms. They can get easily on a roll if they do win this one.

I still think Italy is better then most think and the Poms, I dont have a clue. Just know our lot are over their Pom blues. Still a bit worried for Snor keeping the same team vs the Skotte by the time we get to the Poms our lot maybe a bit tired. If I read the rumours there is a real fight now for places in the Bok team, which is a very good sign. Not much between players like Habana & Nokwe, Steyn & Jean or Steyn & Pienaar, AD & Fouriue, Januarie & FdP, Bekker & Matfield, Bakkies & Pakslae, Kankowski & Spies.

So good luck to you lot. Also expecting a close one between Ireland/Wales vs the All Blacks. Wales sure will be a tough one.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
Interesting article in today's Times based on convo with Eddie Jones. Being based here now, he knows the players better than most.

Martin Johnson facing his first real test
Eddie Jones, the former Australia coach, says that the new manager will have to ensure his team hit the ground running

Whoever wins at Twickenham on Saturday, England or Australia, these teams will present the strongest challenge to South Africa and New Zealand at the next World Cup, according to Eddie Jones. ?Saturday will tell us a lot more about where they are in their development,? Jones, who has a foot in both camps, said.

The former Australia coach has, in fact, a foot in many camps. A renowned workaholic, the Saracens director of rugby was in Japan last week to work with the Suntory club, with whom he has longstanding connections, and will renew his partnership with Jake White next month to coach the Barbarians against Australia at Wembley.

Jones was the tactical analyst to the South Africa side coached by White when they won the Webb Ellis Cup 13 months ago. He also coached the last Australia side to reach a World Cup final, that of 2003, when England won in extra time in Sydney. Now Jones and his family are based near London and the Guinness Premiership club for whom he works boast the England captain, Steve Borthwick, which leaves Jones more fascinated than normal about the outcome at Twickenham.

Such is the talent and organisation available to his own country and his adopted country, Jones predicts that both are capable of success in New Zealand in 2011. But he remains wide-eyed that England have given such instant preferment to Martin Johnson, the team manager. ?An appointment like that would never happen in Australia,? he said, knowing that because Australia, with a small playing population, must maximise their resources to the utmost, they could not afford to place in overall control of the national squad an individual with neither coaching nor managerial qualifications.

This is not necessarily a poke at Johnson's tough hide (along the lines recommended last week by Sir Clive Woodward, Jones's old adversary, who believes that Johnson should join in the verbal warfare that distinguished so much of his own reign as England head coach), even if it could be taken as such. He is genuinely intrigued to see how Johnson's presence will influence both England's play and the overall standards that have slipped so badly since Woodward resigned in 2004.

?The big question for England is what they will do off their own ball,?
Jones said. ?We have seen how London Irish under Brian Smith [the England attack coach] play off the other side's mistakes and we saw some of that from England against the Pacific Islanders last weekend, like the quick tap from their own 22 which resulted in a try.

?But do they want to create line breaks in a way we haven't seen from England since 2003? That will be a test of Martin as a manager, how he makes sure England play the game best suited to the players they have. It's hard to make bold statements after only one game, but Martin is very good at man-management, at understanding people, and he will cut his playing style according to his cloth.?

Jones, though, pinpoints the breakdown as the area where the game will be won and lost. In George Smith, he believes, Australia have the world's outstanding open-side flanker. ?I think he's better than [Richie] McCaw at the moment :thumb and if England do give the ball air, the breakdown will be the most important area of the game,? he said. ?If the referee [Marius Jonker, of South Africa] keeps people on their feet, there will be a lot more contests and if that's the case, Australia could dominate and perhaps score the one try, from turnover ball, that could make the difference. I don't think there will be many points in the game, defences on both sides are strong, but turnover ball will be decisive.

?Australia have, in effect, gone for two No 7s in Smith and Richard Brown, who is an open-side turned into a No 8. They will target the breakdown and England are nowhere near Smith's level yet. Tom Rees is a pretty good player but he's right at the start of his career, as is Tom Croft, who's not great at the tackle area.?

Jones sees strong elements of the pattern adopted by Crusaders, the dominant team of Super 14 rugby, coming into Australia's play now that Robbie Deans has moved from the Canterbury-based franchise in New Zealand to coach the Wallabies. ?Australia are kicking a lot more out of their own half, but once they get into England's third of the pitch, they will really go for you,? he said.

He acknowledges that England possess a ?handy? back three, although he reserves judgment until they have played a better unit than the Pacific Islanders. The possibilities of Danny Care and Danny Cipriani at half back attract him, although he queries whether the combination of Cipriani and Riki Flutey at Nos 10 and 12 will prove successful in terms of game management at the highest level.

There is a word, too, for Borthwick, who joined Saracens from Bath during the summer. ?He was captain of a strong team with established leaders and we are still building the same culture at Sarries that Bath have had,? Jones said. ?But Steve has been instrumental in taking that forward, he's strong, dedicated, serious about rugby. I thought he did pretty well against the Islanders and it'll be exciting to see how England respond to him in a more demanding environment.?
 
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formeropenside

Guest
Smith is good, but he does too much silly stuff and doesn't work the ref anywhere as well as McCaw. I suppose Eddie's right in that McCaw is the world best cheat rather than the world's best player, but I dont know that there is a single facet of play where Smith outshines McCaw.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
formeropenside said:
Smith is good, but he does too much silly stuff and doesn't work the ref anywhere as well as McCaw. I suppose Eddie's right in that McCaw is the world best cheat rather than the world's best player, but I dont know that there is a single facet of play where Smith outshines McCaw.

Christ Former, don't start me off on that again.....

Here's my thoughts on tomorrow. Gonna be there. Fan-fucking-tastic. I think.


If you're looking for a completely level headed assessment of the Wallabies chances at Twickenham on Saturday, you've come to the wrong place. It might not be the bias you'd expect though. My problem is that I've been burned too many times.

This century Australia has lost 4 out of our 5 encounters against the poms at Twickenham, and I've been there for them all.

Having declared my bias, here goes.

As usual everyone looks towards our backline as an edge over the traditionally one dimensional poms. Undoubtedly there's talent in it, but right now when I look at our backline I see a 12 at 10, a 13 at 12 and no 15 anywhere. We've no tactical kicking game to speak of, so should the forwards start going backwards there's no plan B.

The England backline showed good counter-attacking power on saturday, especially through their back three ignited by Care at 9. But we're yet to see what they can create on attack and I'm not sure Flutey and Noone are the guys to do it. It could be though that Brian Smith is sensibly playing to his strengths and decided they don't particularly need it.

This brings us to the much vaunted show-down (or as the pommy press would have it - "smack-down") between the packs. The wanging on about our dodgy front row has reached fever pitch (from both hemispheres) but what really lost us the RWC QF last year wasn't the scrum, as much as the breakdown.

ASSUMING the scrum has improved enough to avoid yellow cards and deliver our own ball, it's the work at the breakdown that's even more important. I expect Smith and Brown to win the race, and should MMM, Sharpe and Chisholm get off the wing and stuck into the dirty stuff, Burgess should be able to deliver some quality ball that even an out of place 13 can bulldoze onto.

Watching the 20 stone Census Johnston come out even with Sheridan last week gave me some hope, but reading what his scrummaging team mate at Sale and international prop Stuart Turner has to say doesn't help:
"He doesn't do half-measures. Scrummaging against Sheri ruins your body, I don't recommend it.
The most important thing about a scrum is the hit, getting a good position against your opponent and hopefully gaining a bit of momentum. Sheri does well at that because his athleticism and size make him so quick across the gap, he's on to you straight away. But he's also one of the few people you can think you've got in a weak position after the hit, but he will still be able to wrestle his way back and lift you up, because he's so strong. You can't relax against him ever.?

It's no exaggeration to say that this will be the defining moment of Al Baxter's career. It's surely his make or break moment with Antipodeans.

Looking at the progress and situations of these two teams I'd say that Australia has closed the gap a little on the England pack, but that even with their young guns, the England backs have similarly closed in on the makeshift Wallaby back-line. I believe this is going to make it an extremely close game and under the half-baked ELVs the place kickers' form will have a big influence on the result.

The average scoreline of all Twickenham Cook Cup games this century turns out to be 24-20 to the home side with two tries a piece. With no Wilkinson and a better forward performance, I believe we can bridge this gap, but only just. Australia by 1. Please.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Good post Gagger - can't argue with much of that.

I'm one who didn't think the Poms looked that great until the PIs started falling off tackles in the 2nd half.

Our scrum will have to do a lot better than in the RWC or at HQ last time and our backs will have to combine a lot better than in Italy, but I feel they will be concerned about our guys and some of the good rugby we have played this year - albeit not every game and albeit not for 80 minutes.

I am concerned about our inexperienced guys being intimidated by playing at HQ. It's one thing to being able to beat the All Blacks in Sydney but quite another to beat the Poms at the cabbage patch to the tune of "Sweet Chariot".
 
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brokendown gunfighter

Guest
at least most of you will be able to watch the match live,whereas us sandgropers have to put up with a 2 hour delay on channel 10.

however country viewers in WA will get the coverage live through the WIN network

it peeves me that Fox didnt get the broadcast rights

WA=wait awhile :angryfire:
 
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Turban

Guest
brokendown gunfighter said:
at least most of you will be able to watch the match live,whereas us sandgropers have to put up with a 2 hour delay on channel 10.

however country viewers in WA will get the coverage live through the WIN network

it peeves me that Fox didnt get the broadcast rights

WA=wait awhile :angryfire:

It's not live on Fox? Your joking right?
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Setanta have the live rights to all Pommy games on PayTV. So either get Setanta or wait it would appear :nta:

Broadcasting 1AM EDST on Ten here.
 
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