Playing 13 under Deans

[chasmac]

This is a good thread.
The All Blacks have Conrad Smith. He is - rightly - never under a selection cloud so they rate what he does. He isn't a big crashball player like Mortlock. He isn't an X factor player like our mighty midgets. He is one of their most aerobically fit players and virtually never makes mistakes. But he doesn't bust tackles (generally) and he doesn't step his opposite number. Defensively he is solid but not a dominant tackler.

So what is it? And do any of our players in the WC squad have all of these skills plus a bit of Mortlock or a bit of X factor?
Similarly, the AB gameplan doesn't seem to try and attack through the 13 channel.

I think the gameplan has moved away from the set moves off first phase. It has been said previously in the thread but I find it a bit dissapointing and would love to believe that there is something being kept up the sleeve.

The only try the AB's scored against the Boks was off first phase. Everyone was talking up how good the defensive effort of the Boks was. Bob Dwyer did his analysis of the try last week on the chalkboard. Gnostics point about this being the way to break down a well organised defense is on the money.

 

[undercoverkiwi]

Leon McDonald.

 

[Gagger]

Maybe Nuci can help in this area? He oversaw the Brumbies when they ran a backline move at every set piece.

hehe, so that'll be Nuci running the forwards at the breakdown and the backs from set piece.....

Your plan is coming together Scarfie!

 

[Jethro Tah]

Faainga is clearly the best defender, but also obviously the worst attacker.

Some of his fans may not agree but there may be some truth in the claim. In the weekends game I clearly recall seeing Beale with ball in hand looking outside to see an unmarked Ant but then taking the ball into contact and thought that it was a bit odd at the time. With ball in hand Ant may not be the best attacker but when the Wallaby backs are attacking you would certainly want him to be one of the first players there for a clean out. Which leads me back to the thread topic - maybe we are going through a phase of smallish 13s who have lacked confidence in the other backs on the paddock to secure possession after the crash ball, especially against the bigger centre combos of the ABs, Boks and Poms.

But then again who better in the current squad to play 13 in the mould you are suggesting than Higgers or Samo.

 

[Cutter]

Some thoughts/observations:

Herbert and Mortlock played outside Larkham. Cooper can throw a good ball, but he's no Larkham in respect of being able to create space in that channel whether through his own drift or running moves which create that space. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) can occasionally run a good line at 13, but he's not been in form recently and no one else is great at that (actually, for all his many faults, Ryan Cross is not bad at this and has done okay for the Wallabies at times at 13 as a result).

So, these two factors contribute to why, imo, the W's haven't used this channel much. The other factor which I think is relevant is that Cooper looks for Beale, Ioane, O'Connor and Mitchell (when he's playing) when he has the ball or for short balls after he has broken the line. As such, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), McCabe, Fainga'a and Turner (when playing) are less likely to get wide ball directly from QC (Quade Cooper). AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) isn't great at continuing a movement and the others probably know it will break down with him. You'll notice Cooper often passing behind the line to Beale. This would traditionally be a cut to 13 rather than 15 with the 15 coming inside or outside the 13 afterwards. As it is, it relies on Beale doing something because the other runners are, initially, in front of him.

That sounds slightly incoherent.

 

[Scotty]

Some of his fans may not agree but there may be some truth in the claim. In the weekends game I clearly recall seeing Beale with ball in hand looking outside to see an unmarked Ant but then taking the ball into contact and thought that it was a bit odd at the time. With ball in hand Ant may not be the best attacker but when the Wallaby backs are attacking you would certainly want him to be one of the first players there for a clean out. Which leads me back to the thread topic - maybe we are going through a phase of smallish 13s who have lacked confidence in the other backs on the paddock to secure possession after the crash ball, especially against the bigger centre combos of the ABs, Boks and Poms.

But then again who better in the current squad to play 13 in the mould you are suggesting than Higgers or Samo.

If the Beale incident you are talking about was the one where he beat two defenders with his footwork first, well he just ran infield away from his support and tried to beat other defender. Didn't even look to his support despite there being two unmarked players on his outside. Good chance it would have been a try if he did.

 

[Scotty]

Some thoughts/observations:

Herbert and Mortlock played outside Larkham. Cooper can throw a good ball, but he's no Larkham in respect of being able to create space in that channel whether through his own drift or running moves which create that space. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) can occasionally run a good line at 13, but he's not been in form recently and no one else is great at that (actually, for all his many faults, Ryan Cross is not bad at this and has done okay for the Wallabies at times at 13 as a result).

So, these two factors contribute to why, imo, the W's haven't used this channel much. The other factor which I think is relevant is that Cooper looks for Beale, Ioane, O'Connor and Mitchell (when he's playing) when he has the ball or for short balls after he has broken the line. As such, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), McCabe, Fainga'a and Turner (when playing) are less likely to get wide ball directly from QC (Quade Cooper). AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) isn't great at continuing a movement and the others probably know it will break down with him. You'll notice Cooper often passing behind the line to Beale. This would traditionally be a cut to 13 rather than 15 with the 15 coming inside or outside the 13 afterwards. As it is, it relies on Beale doing something because the other runners are, initially, in front of him.

That sounds slightly incoherent.

Not incoherent at all. Pretty much what I was talking about. Beale is our outside playmaker, so Cooper looks for him in the second line of attack.

If our 13 was a ball player, then Beale would instead be running off him. See what happened vs the Boks when JOC (James O'Connor) moved into the 13 position - try to McCabe as JOC (James O'Connor) stood up Brussouw and set up his outside man. If JOC (James O'Connor) comes back into the team it wouldn't be bad play to have him attacking in the 13 channel most of the time, but AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) defending in the 13 channel. JOC (James O'Connor) will be able to skin more 13s than wingers (and you often get forwards defending in the centres, but hardly ever at wing).

I would like Beale to be running more straight and inside lines, as well as being an alternate blindside playmaker.

 

[fatprop]

To me Cooper needs guys in motion, running decent lines and being aware that they may be the receiver, the blocker or the dummy runner for each play.

So Cooper can then just mix it up

 

[chasmac]

Not incoherent at all. Pretty much what I was talking about. Beale is our outside playmaker, so Cooper looks for him in the second line of attack.

If our 13 was a ball player, then Beale would instead be running off him. See what happened vs the Boks when JOC (James O'Connor) moved into the 13 position - try to McCabe as JOC (James O'Connor) stood up Brussouw and set up his outside man. If JOC (James O'Connor) comes back into the team it wouldn't be bad play to have him attacking in the 13 channel most of the time, but AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) defending in the 13 channel. JOC (James O'Connor) will be able to skin more 13s than wingers (and you often get forwards defending in the centres, but hardly ever at wing).

I would like Beale to be running more straight and inside lines, as well as being an alternate blindside playmaker.

Scotty, good observations. In McCabes try on the RHS of the field did JOC (James O'Connor) come from the left wing or was he the right winger?

 

[Slim 293]

I believe JOC (James O'Connor) is the right winger.

 

[Running Rugby]

I wonder of the question would be better posed as playing 13 outside Quade. I think Quade requires a very different style of 13 than most 10's. His ability to distribute the ball wide and flat makes all outside runners have equal chance of finding time and space if they run into holes. I believe this is why Deans likes the idea of Ashley- Cooper playing 13 because he is one of our better gap runners.

To me the traditional 13's job is to run straight and set up his outside support and potentially Horne is the best exponent of this.

13 is also a great place for your defensive leader as their outside channel is the one most regularly attacked by the fullback entering the line-and if you needed somebody to fill this job I believe Faainga would be the best option.
What a nice dilemma to have.

 

[Scotty]

To me Cooper needs guys in motion, running decent lines and being aware that they may be the receiver, the blocker or the dummy runner for each play.

So Cooper can then just mix it up

Agree, and the additional benefit that Cooper's wide passing brings is that it can let the outside creative players have a lot more space to work in, particularly if 12 and either 15 or 13 are running straight. Add Genia's pass to Coopers and the ball can get into Beale's/JOC (James O'Connor)'s hands on the other side of the field in seconds, whereby they can work their magic in a 2 on 2.

 

[Lee Grant]

Watching the highlights of the 84 slam the other night it really struck me how good a passing game Andrew Slack had. Several times he was able to put the ball on the chest of the fullback or wing from 15m and while running at full pace. It made me starting thinking about when was the last 13 we had that could do that?

I don't reckon there has been one since Jason Little.

Well said. Slackie was one of the most under-rated players we ever had. He knew how to give the golden ball and too often we looked at the recipient of the pass and what he did with it, rather than the passer of it. He wasn't just good at long passes either. Like Ella he could make short passes deadly.

Very few people have seen Horne play at 12 and watched his passing game. It was a while ago, for NSW Schools, and one wondered what his best centre position would be. His speed made coaches play him outside rather than inside, but meantime folks should know that he can pass the ball.

 

[Gnostic]

Well said. Slackie was one of the most under-rated players we ever had. He knew how to give the golden ball and too often we looked at the recipient of the pass and what he did with it, rather than the passer of it. He wasn't just good at long passes either. Like Ella he could make short passes deadly.

Very few people have seen Horne play at 12 and watched his passing game. It was a while ago, for NSW Schools, and one wondered what his best centre position would be. His speed made coaches play him outside rather than inside, but meantime folks should know that he can pass the ball.

Very interesting that so many people say Slack was a great passer of the ball when his contemparies and he himself admits he was woefully shocking at passing right to left. In fact a very good interview exists somewhere with Campese talking about skills improvement prior to the 1984 Grand Slam tour with Slack spending a lot of time passing out of the left hand and he creditted this practice and improvement by Slack for his second try against the Scots which required Slack to pass the ball right to left at pace for Campo to score. I will attempt to get the said video to somebody with more techno nouse than me to post.

 

[tranquility]

It annoys me that A.Fingers attacking game gets run into the mud, and he get labelled a defensive specialist. Ant, run strong incisive lines with good body position. He also offers solid distribution and has played 5/8 for the Reds in many development games. I truly think he has the aptitude and temperament to become a Wallaby great. He might not, but he has the stuff that can't be measured in a gym or a running track - and that counts for alot.

 

[Linus]

I think the length of QC (Quade Cooper) pass means that Digby and in the recent past Schmoo fill the role that most see as the 13's role, a blind side winger, and run the unders line into the drift defence. With JOC (James O'Connor) and KB (Kurtley Beale) typically run to the outside or the second line play. With AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13 you will always have the Black Hole (ie a dummy and run), I think Ant can distribute better than AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) but Saturday was a part of the plan to fix what was done so badly at Eden Park, fling it to the wings with no idea other than to run the NZ pack around.

 

[fatprop]

It annoys me that A.Fingers attacking game gets run into the mud, and he get labelled a defensive specialist. Ant, run strong incisive lines with good body position. He also offers solid distribution and has played 5/8 for the Reds in many development games. I truly think he has the aptitude and temperament to become a Wallaby great. He might not, but he has the stuff that can't be measured in a gym or a running track - and that counts for alot.

It isn't about running anyone in to the mud and more about accepting that there may be better attacking options for the limited opportunities a Wallaby 13 gets

 

[tranquility]

Rubbish.

I won't talk about what the tight head does in a scrum okay?

 

[Richo]

Rubbish.

I won't talk about what the tight head does in a scrum okay?

So your argument is that A. Finger is the best attacking 13 in Australian rugby?

 

[Rebel rouser]

Hard to find a 13 who didn't look good against the Rebels..

You mean the Rebels who beat the Brumbies in round 2 who were playing the Wallabies incumbent centre pair (AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) 13, Mccabe was at 15 that night)
and the Rebels who beat the Hurricanes in round 4 who were playing the All Blacks incumbent centre pair (Nonu 12, Conrad Smith 13) by 42-25?

Just wondering