• Welcome to the forums of Green & Gold Rugby.
    We have recently made some changes to the amount of discussions boards on the forum.
    Over the coming months we will continue to make more changes to make the forum more user friendly for all to use.
    Thanks, Admin.

PdV: The World is Against US (including the IRB)

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Spook

Guest
Paarl, this surely goes against your rules of conduct concerning refereees? :nta:

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=6&click_id=4&art_id=vn20090908070530234C342145

After South Africa wrote to IRB referee's boss Paddy O'Brien, asking for clarity on decisions and were told that Lawrence's decisions were the most accurate of the Tri-Nations, De Villiers said on Monday: "I believe it's a complete waste of time.

"It doesn't matter if we ask for an explanation of the scrum rules. The problem is pointed out but it is not officiated properly by the referee and the other officials on the field."

De Villiers, however, won't be sending another e-mail to O'Brien protesting this week and explained why.

"I believe life within your own country is sometimes a burden because you have to face it every day but when you go outside your borders, you see that it's actually worse.

"People don't want to see other teams being successful. That is my biggest problem at the moment. We can't go public about certain things because we don't have all the evidence, but the body language of certain officials when things went against us in that game made us worry.

"The officials were so happy when decisions went against us on the day. I am talking about the No.1 rugby team in the world. Shouldn't they really get the other guys to that level?

"Or do they want to break things down so that the game can become mediocre and everyone has a chance to win it.

"We don't want to dwell on that point, but if that is the case, then I feel I am wasting my time by talking to them. I will then have to reconsider talking to them."


So PdV is blaming the body language of the officials?

excited_~bxp28877.jpg
 

disco

Chilla Wilson (44)
He is easily the most bizarre national coach ever.

Considering how good this Bok side is ATM I would hate to see how good they would have been if Meyer was given the top job.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
He truly is a fruit loop.

Doesn't his comments come under 'brining the game into disrepute'. He gets very close to fining material each time he has a rant about the game.

PS Scrum penalties went both ways in the Brisbane game - but the ones that went Oz's way seemed pretty clear cut. I think if he was sane and honest he would probably admit they were lucky to come out almost even in the scrum decisions.
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
He has a fairly severe personality disorder.

But it does add to the evidence that good teams don't need coaches, like Warnie says. The Springboks have never played better and I am convinved it has nothing to do with PdV. The Brumbies won a S12 with the coach on the outer. The Waratahs had their most successful season when the players took control away from Link. Adds up.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
He should just speak in his first language and let a PR/Interpreter type clean up his stuff on the run.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Ag he is just play the Boer Eddie Jones version of old. ;) Good to see him back to his old ways.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
More oil on the fire from the Australian


All Blacks scrummage illegally, former Wallabies prop Andrew Blades accuses

By Bret Harris
September 09, 2009

Former Wallabies prop Andrew Blades has accused New Zealand of employing dubious tactics to disrupt the opposition's scrum in the Tri Nations tournament.

The Wallabies scrum has struggled in the two Test losses to the All Blacks in Auckland and Sydney this year.

And the Test future of veteran Wallabies tighthead prop Al Baxter is up in the air after he was repeatedly penalised for collapsing the scrum against the All Blacks.

"Tactically, the All Blacks run around the corner," Blades said.

"Instead of pushing blokes backwards, they come out sideways. The scrum is walking around rather than pushing.


"It looked like a tactic. Let's go at him (Baxter) and force him to scrummage against us. That's when it starts to collapse."

Wallabies coach Robbie Deans is almost certain to start a young front row of Benn Robinson, Tatafu Polota-Nau and Ben Alexander, which performed well in the Wallabies' 21-6 win against the Springboks in Brisbane last Saturday.

Asked how he thought the inexperienced Alexander would go against wily New Zealand loosehead prop Tony Woodcock, Blades said: "It's hard to know. It depends on the refereeing.

"If the referee polices Woodcock, Alexander will be fine.

"If not, it will be an issue no matter who is playing against him.

"Woodcock is very disruptive. It's his bread and butter. But he gets away with a lot. It will be important how the scrum is refereed.

"You've got to be straight and push. Technically, they don't do that. It's a grey area. Some referees are harsh on it. You have to go for the hole. It might look like you are boring in, but you aren't."

Blades said the Wallabies had scrummaged well on the Springboks' ball, but were inconsistent on their own feed.

"(Alexander) had a couple of dodgy ones on our ball," Blades said.

"He is learning and he is having a dig. You can't ask for much more.

"There were some very good ones. He's just inexperienced. He is learning to cope with new things. You can't be too critical of the bloke. To be coping is good, but he has to keep stepping up so we get more usable scrum ball for our backs.

"The last few years we have struggled with the amount of usable ball we have got from the scrum."

Blades said that he would keep uncapped prop Pek Cowan in the 22-man squad for the All Blacks Test rather than recall Baxter, even though Cowan did not get on the field in Brisbane.

"I haven't seen that much of Pek to know how he would cope," Blades said. "But it's past the point of playing safe. We have to have a dig.

"These blokes are the future. We have to test them out."

The All Blacks will be a much tougher competitors in the scrum than the Springboks, who have struggled with captain and hooker John Smit playing at tighthead prop.

But Blades argued that the Springboks' main problem in the scrum was hooker Bismarck du Plessis.

"Everyone is going on about John Smit struggling, but the hooker is struggling more," Blades said.

"John Smit is a problem because he is not a tighthead, but the hooker is a dreadful scrummager,
although he is a great footballer."

Blades said the Wallabies back row had competed well at the breakdown but they were helped by Springboks coach Peter de Villiers' decision to replace openside flanker Heinrich Brussow midway through the second half.

"Every time the Springboks have taken Brussow off, they have struggled," Blades said.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Saw on TSF this one starting from Keo and his gang, copying by the All Blacks site and spread all over. Keo have a reputation trying his outmost best to make Snors world a nightmare and have done it again. Just keep in mind Snor fired his late Hewiit muppet and from then on he start his kak and even had that kak sex tape rumour going. Anyway I am not into that kak and reporters write to sell papers and I'll rather read the experts opinions and this one coming from Gary Gold column about John Smits scrumming and giving credit to your fatty Robinson for his scrumming
http://coaching.blog.rugbyiq.com/
.
Last week i mentioned that i would like to do an in depth of Australia, ironically i was going to share some views that would back up why i thought Australia were a very good team, despite two early losses to S.A. in the Tri-Nations, and then they went to prove that to us by an emphatic and clinical victory over the Boks on the weekend here in Brisbane.
But i have rather decided to do that at a later stage as a wrap up of where i believe Australia and New Zealand are at the moment and i will share some really interesting game statistics that i am sure many of you were not aware of.
Instead today i would like to briefly chat about a topic i have been emailed on regularly and asked to discuss, and that is John Smit at tighthead.
Firstly let me say that I have read many supposedly knowledgeable journalists, and frighteningly, have also read some views from an ex international coach, who is acclaimed as a scrum guru here in Australia, and i could NOT disagree enough with their in-factual, personal and biased views about John, his ability at tighthead and how the Springbok scrum is an Achilles heel.
Interestingly, John played prop at school and at his early days in provincial rugby, he also was used very successfully at his French club Clermont in the very tough scrum environment of the French Top 14, so tighthead is certainly not something he decided to “have a bash at” in order for himself to still be considered to play for South Africa, in fact he was asked to play there by the coaching staff because we had lost C.J.van der Linde and B.J. Botha to the North, and John was seen, due to his fantastic form at Clermont, as a more than able to fill those shoes. To also start to mention his other qualities as a rugby player and a leader would require another whole blog topic, so we will just concentrate on his ability at scrum time.

Now a few weeks ago i wrote about “Rugby Romantics” when we were discussing the kicking game, and in our job as coaches, it is vitally important that we are process driven and do not get caught up in the emotions of an incident that occurs in a game where we lose sight of the ultimate objective of what we are attempting to achieve.Now I say this because the ultimate objective of the scrum, in the modern game, is to provide quality ball for the team to be able to use effectively to launch a play. Yes I also do believe the scrum is an area where one team can gain a physical physiological edge on your opponents but ultimately and bluntly once the ball is either in the 8’s hands or the 9 has passed it effectively, the scrum is over. So the ultimate objective for a team and its coaches is to asses how effectively, if at all, a team can get to play off effective scrum ball, and in turn that would indirectly lead us to judge the effect of the scrum. To that end i would like to share some scrum statistics i had leading into the last Test between the Wallabies and Boks.
Australia had had 47 scrums in the 3 games they had played, in those 47 scrums they had 14 re sets, which is 30%. Remarkably they only got to launch an effective play off 17 of there scrums which is 36%. In South Africa’s case we had had 54 scrums in the first 3 games. The Boks had 5 re-sets which was 9% and incredibly, the Boks were able to launch effective plays off 39 of those scrums which constitutes a very acceptable 72%. These are facts, hard undebatable facts, these are not my emotive views, or a personal attack or defence toward or in favour of anyone, as i have witnessed recently towards South Africa’s scrums and in particular John Smit.
As a coach we need to present facts to players and a team in order for them to improve, or if an aspect of ones game is not up to standard, then,I suppose like any good doctor, we need to fix the cause and not the symptom.
Now i am also not totally blinkered and naive, and please, i am not needing to defend John or the Boks, i believe their are definitely areas of the Boks game where they can certainly improve, and scrums is certainly one, but i don’t feel that the specific scale of the criticism toward the scrum is based on facts and evidence,which as coaches, is all we can and should be focused on. I assume that a lot of the criticism has possibly come from what we all saw in the test in Brisbane, and in the test in Perth when the talented Ben Robinson caught John on the hit in 3 scrums, and was able to get underneath him, and in those scrums, yes, Australia had the upper hand. It looked dramatic, as John was lifted into the air and his head popped out of the scrum, and in fact in the game on the weekend he was actually penalised. Yes, this did not look good, but this is what the short talented Robinson’s strategy was, to attempt to walk around John, get underneath him and then scrum up on him and hence catching him on the angle, fair play to him, but in the other 27 scrums we had in the 2 tests, that was not necessarily the case and that ploy certainly did not work.

John is a big man, he weighs 122 kg is 1,85cm and is a powerful specimen, but as the ex springbok tighthead Cobus Visagie wrote in a recent interview he did when asked about John, he said that he thought John was doing very well but possibly needed to remember that on every single scrum he needed to get low in the knees, hence getting his body position lower and to then take the engagement from that position, so he cannot get caught when he comes up against shorter looseheads. A quality constructive criticism that we will both take on board and certainly look to focus and improve

In the world of rugby it seems that the experts also do have selected short term memory loss, however I choose not to forget how the scrums went for South Africa in the recent British and Irish Lions series, possibly i can remind some of the experts. In the first test in Durban the Boks did nothing short of demolishing the Lions, and as i have already explained, benefited by receiving 3 penalties and a turnover, again, that is the direct result of those 4 scrums. That is all we can concern ourselves with. In fact in that very same test the Boks also had a “huge” scrum against the Lions, but the Lions got the ball away effectively and really Ugo Monye should have scored if it not were fro the brilliance of Jean de Villiers dislodging the ball, so again I state that particular scrum meant nothing because of what resulted from it.

Now in the current Tri-Nations and particularly against Australia, I can well remember the left hand scrum in Perth where John, and i might add the rest of his teamates (b.t.w their are also 7 other men in a scrum who have an equally important role!!) were able to help him get a fantastic right shoulder that led to Bryan Habana’s match winning try under the poles. I am also reminded of the great solid midfield scrum in the same test just earlier that led to Jaques Fourie’s untouched try under the poles, to start the rot. Also, it springs to mind how good the Boks defensive scrum was against the Aussies this last weekend that led to Fourie du Preez turning the ball over out of Will Genia’s hands, and I could go on reminding you of all the many other scrums, that led to a more than solid base where our kickers were able to clear us out of our 22 or were able to launch our aerial assault that has returned such great dividends for the Boks.
Finally friends, the scrum is an incredibly intricate machine, of incredibly powerful forces working in very many ways and will every now and then breakdown. In the Boks case, and in particular John’s, yes, they can most definitely improve, as can our defence and other aspects of our game. The Boks can also become a lot more consistent at scrum time, particularly on their own ball,most definitely, but i hope i have been able to go a short way to show that it is not costing the Boks games and in fact has on many occasions been a very good platform for South Africa to launch effective plays from, considering we have been able to score 6 tries this season to date from the launch off scrums. It still remains an aspect of the team that can definitely improve, as i have said, but South Africa’s great captain, John Smit is doing a superb job, and is most definitely getting better every game, just look at the facts.
Until we chat again all the best
GG
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Good article, but I disagree on one point. The entire aim of the scrum is not as simple as just getting the ball away effectively. The Wallabies were often able to do that when they had a weaker scrum, and sometimes even score tries off first phase, but it was always a 'band aid', and often quite lucky (eg the ball was raked quickly by the hooker or messy ball picked up cleanly by the 8).

Constant pressure at the scrum, where you are always figthing for your own ball also takes a lot of energy out of the forwards, and affects the rest of their game. Not to mention frustrating the backs, so they can often overplay their hand when they get the ball. In fact, in my opinion the psychological and physiological advantages you can get by having a strong scrum is just as important as the ability to clear the ball.

Yes I also do believe the scrum is an area where one team can gain a physical physiological edge on your opponents but ultimately and bluntly once the ball is either in the 8’s hands or the 9 has passed it effectively, the scrum is over.

PS I thought the scrums were fairly even in Brisbane - I thought we actually got more of an upper hand in them in SA. I think wallaby fans are just getting very excited (including me) and somewhat overreacting because we have actually been able to drive forward on some scrums, something that we have barely done this century.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Visagie is right - Smit doesn't get low enough. Carl Hayman is a huge unit yet manages not to get pushed up by short arsed LHPs.

Interesting Blades comments about Bismark dP being a weak scrummager. Haven't noticed it but it's always hard for non frontrowers to judge hookers' ability to scrummage.

Blades is right about Alexander having a bit of trouble on the Oz scrum in Brisbane. It will be interesting to see how he goes against Woodcock - who does walk around.

IMO there should be a requirement for props to set up square and not have the LHP's chest pointing towards the opposing hooker before they crouch. You see them binding before the crouch so tight that the LHP's right shoulder is back in relation to his (loose) left one. Guess where his power will be directed on the engage? Not straight. He practically has to walk around so that his spine isn't twisted.

The law requires that props be in a position to push forward. It is too wishy washy. The law should be changed to state that props should be square on the hit. Then their power will be directed forward.

After a square-on hit the ability to wheel should be rewarded, provided the THPs don't dig their heels in and push backwards to assist in creating the wheel.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
Bismark was the main culprit for popping in Brisbane, but he may not be to blame. If his props are allowing the pressure to be directed directly on to him he may have had little choice. Smit and the new myth had trouble in Brisbane.
 

Lindommer

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
...how good the Boks defensive scrum was against the Aussies this last weekend that led to Fourie du Preez turning the ball over out of Will Genia’s hands..

Was this Keo fella watching the same game the rest of us were? Genia's non-try happened after a penalty was awarded at a ruck. :nta: :nta: :nta:
 

mark_s

Chilla Wilson (44)
Being driven backwards or collapsing in the scrum can be caused by the weakenesses in the prop(s) or by the other members of the scrum (poor binds, poor body position, poor engagement, lack of weight etc.). However getting popped in a scrum is a sign of either technical weakenesses or lack of concentration for that prop alone and is extremely humliating for that prop (trust me I know).

International level props should very very very rarely be popped, and it shouldn't happen game after game. Imagine what the reactions (both here and OS) would be if an Aus prop got popped the way Smit has in the last two tests. We would be the laughing stock of the world.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
SA fronts rows pack higher and seem to stand up under pressure.

If they do come up as a front row it seems, well at least in the S14, to get the scrum reset.

Aus and the ABs pack lower and if it fails they collapse.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top