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onwards and sidewards (???) - Italy

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rugbywhisperer

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Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Scotty said:
Deans wants a counter attacking back three that work hard for eachother.

That would make sense if he didn't select Tuqiri in the squad. How does he fit into all that? And for that matter, Ioane doesn't either!

I agree it would be great to have a counter attacking back three, working in unison, and able spread the ball quickly to the other side of the field, but no matter how we look at it one of the fullbacks main jobs is to be able to release pressure via a good kicking game and to be able to put up midfield bombs with some chance of getting them back (his current strike rate on this must be about 10% at the moment).

I don't see the harm in at least trying Mitchell at 15, and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)/Hynes as the wingers. He is trying just about everything else.

All good points, the kick return on Saturday was woeful. That really needs to be fixed and quickly. The worry is, earlier on in the season it was quite good.
Personally I believe Tuquiri and Ioane should have been left at home. I see Tuquiri at the end of his road and Ioane - well just too immature and unpredictable.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

rugbywhisperer said:
Scotty said:
Deans wants a counter attacking back three that work hard for eachother.

That would make sense if he didn't select Tuqiri in the squad. How does he fit into all that? And for that matter, Ioane doesn't either!

I agree it would be great to have a counter attacking back three, working in unison, and able spread the ball quickly to the other side of the field, but no matter how we look at it one of the fullbacks main jobs is to be able to release pressure via a good kicking game and to be able to put up midfield bombs with some chance of getting them back (his current strike rate on this must be about 10% at the moment).

I don't see the harm in at least trying Mitchell at 15, and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)/Hynes as the wingers. He is trying just about everything else.



All good points, the kick return on Saturday was woeful. That really needs to be fixed and quickly. The worry is, earlier on in the season it was quite good.
Personally I believe Tuquiri and Ioane should have been left at home. I see Tuquiri at the end of his road and Ioane - well just too immature and unpredictable.

The kick return was good early but fell away. It is also worth remembering that it ain't just the back three, it is the whole backline and loosies who could/should be involved.
 
W

whocares

Guest
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

fatprop said:
rugbywhisperer said:
Scotty said:
Deans wants a counter attacking back three that work hard for eachother.

That would make sense if he didn't select Tuqiri in the squad. How does he fit into all that? And for that matter, Ioane doesn't either!

I agree it would be great to have a counter attacking back three, working in unison, and able spread the ball quickly to the other side of the field, but no matter how we look at it one of the fullbacks main jobs is to be able to release pressure via a good kicking game and to be able to put up midfield bombs with some chance of getting them back (his current strike rate on this must be about 10% at the moment).

I don't see the harm in at least trying Mitchell at 15, and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)/Hynes as the wingers. He is trying just about everything else.



All good points, the kick return on Saturday was woeful. That really needs to be fixed and quickly. The worry is, earlier on in the season it was quite good.
Personally I believe Tuquiri and Ioane should have been left at home. I see Tuquiri at the end of his road and Ioane - well just too immature and unpredictable.

The kick return was good early but fell away. It is also worth remembering that it ain't just the back three, it is the whole backline and loosies who could/should be involved.

Yeh thats a good point about the loosies Fatprop. You look at the AB's and their back three as well as So'olialo and Collins used to be there. Then you look at us and theres the back three and sometimes Sharpe which just isn't the same thing.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Carter slots back a lot as well. Maybe Giteau or Barnes could start doing this for Aus (I guess Barnes already does, but not so much Giteau).
 

RugbyReg

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

from what I recall when we try to counter attack its usually just one pass to the centre. For the All Blacks it seems to be at least 2 passes.

Gees I remember watching that 2006 Bledisloe at Suncorp where we kicked it down field and you literally saw about 4 ABs, other than the receiving winger, race back to line up across the field. The likes of Gear, Rok, Muliaina, MacDonald etc.

Our backs aren't getting there yet.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Noddy said:
from what I recall when we try to counter attack its usually just one pass to the centre. For the All Blacks it seems to be at least 2 passes.

Gees I remember watching that 2006 Bledisloe at Suncorp where we kicked it down field and you literally saw about 4 ABs, other than the receiving winger, race back to line up across the field. The likes of Gear, Rok, Muliaina, MacDonald etc.

Our backs aren't getting there yet.

I actually think Staniforth would have been in the mix, if fit, because of his workrate.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Noddy said:
from what I recall when we try to counter attack its usually just one pass to the centre. For the All Blacks it seems to be at least 2 passes.

Gees I remember watching that 2006 Bledisloe at Suncorp where we kicked it down field and you literally saw about 4 ABs, other than the receiving winger, race back to line up across the field. The likes of Gear, Rok, Muliaina, MacDonald etc.

Our backs aren't getting there yet.

Agreed, but it's one step on from leaving it all to Latho.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

The 2003 Blues and AB teams are the best counterattacking teams I have seen. It doesnt hurt when your back three includes Rupeni, Joe Rok and Howlett (for the Blues) and add in Muliaina (who played 13 for the Blues), however, they used, usually, pass it to Spencer in midfield. Spencer set up a lot of their counterattack.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Noddy said:
this test won't go wrong. i expect a thrashing.

This is a pre-season trial. The NZL match was a Bledisloe. Regardless of the stage of the series it was a Bledisloe.

This is Italy. Let's make no mistake about it. The team that the ABs ran up 100 on at the last RWC. Don't get carried away with the performance last time.

This will be game one. The Ities will be blown away.

Connolly tips Aussies to do the job


November 07, 2008

FORMER Australia coach John Connolly believes Robbie Deans' experimental line-up will have far less problems than his Wallabies encountered in their last Italian job.
Deans has rolled the dice by including four debutants in one of the most inexperienced Wallabies outfits of the modern era to play Italy in Padova.

Two years ago, Connolly's far more experienced side suffered a major scare at the hands of the Azzurri, who led 15-13 at halftime in Rome, before a barnstorming Wycliff Palu got them out of jail for a 25-18 win.


Catch all this weekend's internationsal Tests on FOX SPORTS


But while Ben Alexander, Sekope Kepu, Quade Cooper and James O'Connor are set to debut and five others are playing their second or third Test, the former Queensland and Bath mentor said Australia would still be too classy.

"The only hope Italy have is if the conditions are poor," Connolly said.

"They need the weather, referee and a lot of luck to be going there way to be in the match.

"The bonus for Australia is there's a New Zealand referee (Bryce Lawrence) and not a European referee, so they won't get involved in the emotion of it, and I think we're capable of a good win."

Connolly endorsed his coaching successor's selections, with the Padova clash the best chance to expose the many youngsters in his 34-man squad in the six-match tour.

"It's no different to 2006, we played 28 players in that tour and I think you have to play these guys," he said.

Brumbies bolter Alexander faces the toughest test of the rookies, making his first Test start at loose-head prop against a strong Italian front-row of Carlos Nieto, Leonardo Ghiraldini and Salvatore Perugini.

But Connolly felt Alexander and fellow front-rowers Stephen Moore and Matt Dunning had dodged a bullet with Argentine-born, Leicester-based prop Martin Castrogiovanni unavailable.

Hooker Moore rates Castrogiovanni the best scrummager in world rugby and he demolished the Wallabies scrum in 2006.

"That's a real bonus for us (the prop is missing) as he caused us a lot of problems that day," Connolly admitted.

"He's very highly regarded in Europe and is one of the best props in the world."


What is it about Queenslanders and optimism?
 

disco

Chilla Wilson (44)
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

A little preview on the Italy v Australia game written by Danny Stephens who seems just a little anti-aussie.
It's probably fair to say that whatever good work Robbie Deans and his Australian team has done in Italy this week as far as raising the profile of the game goes, Australians are not the flavour of the month in the rugby world at the moment.

One man, and one man alone, is responsible for that: Australian CEO John O'Neill. On and on and on he wibbles, spewing forth all manner of drivel on all manner of perceived injustices prevalent in the modern game. The laws are wrong, the referees are wrong, and you wouldn't be at all surprised if, after this match which will be played in a soccer stadium, he rocks up to some presser somewhere and begins moaning about the length of the grass or the proximity of the athletics track around the pitch or something. Perhaps he'll complain to the IRB again and give us all a really good hard laugh.

His finest hour came this week when, in another plea to have the IRB introduce the cheats' charter - sorry, the sanctions ELV - all over the world so Australians can leave the scrum behind and concentrate on playing to the best of their rugby league capabilities, he uttered the following words: "The two semi-finals and final of the 2007 World Cup were terrible games of rugby. People may not like hearing that but it needs to be said."

He might have been saying differently had Australia been involved. That needs to be said too. Rugby is already struggling to cope with the new laws, it does not need some one-eyed crusader stirring up trouble about them wherever he dares to tread. Sadly, he seems to have whipped up a fair amount of support at home. Perhaps this November will serve to convince him and his supporters that the game under the global ELVs is in fine health and needs no changing.

O'Neill is travelling with the Australian team on this November tour, presumably in one more attempt to convince all the northern unions that free-kicks are wonderful and mauls and scrums are rubbish. With all this now said, we are hoping we can ignore him for the duration.

The build-up to the game, which is being played in Padova's Stadio Euganeo, a 32,000 arena normally reserved for the soccer team, took an odd turn early in the week after the Italian Rugby Federation asked the soccer club to help organise the logistics, like bars and snacks in the stadium and so forth. It later transpired that the soccer club had asked for volunteers, and that many of them came from the soccer club's 'Ultras', a hardcore group not always renowned for the love of purely watching sport!

The kerfuffle died down quickly however, and rugby has ruled the little eastern town which is just down the road from Venice. Players are up on billboards, the azure colour is more and more prevalent, even companies are beginning to find that using rugby players as advertising - promoting rugby's values of graft and honesty - is paying off. Italy's rugby culture is swelling, and one of the world's biggest name teams is arriving at just the right time.

An even better time would, of course, be when Italy were ready to notch a win, but that is probably not the case. The last time these two met, Australia only nicked a late win courtesy of a Stirling Mortlock try. Since then, Italy have got stuck in third gear as the quest for a natural fly-half continues fruitlessly, while Australia have re-vamped and re-built but are still searching for a result that truly announces them as a world power in rugby again.

This game should go similarly to that game in Rome two years ago. Italy's pack should make mincemeat of their opposition; the Azzurri eight is a fearsome unit, right up among the top three or four in the world, and so the ball will go firmly up jumpers in the tight, or up in the air when it gets out of the tight. Points will come from penalties, not absolutely riveting to watch, but deserved on the basis of talent and work to all spectators bar O'Neill.

Australia would do well to keep the ball well away from their end of the field and be very very patient in their build-up. Italy's only two really world class backs are full-back Andrea Masi and centre Gonzalo Canale, the rest are there for the Wallabies to run rings round. But they must work themselves into the space (not quite O'Neill's game), rather than just fling it around as much as possible (very much O'Neill's game) before they can reap the benefits of their extra potency.

Reap them they will, despite the enthusiasm of the Italian defence in tight and loose. It'll be another raucous Italian crowd, another foundation-quivering rendition of Il Canto degli Italiani, and another phenomenal effort, but sadly, another valiant defeat. Ghiraldini is right though, it's only a matter of time before Italy do get a big win, and the big day is not far away at all.

Ones to watch:

For Italy: Sergio Parisse, in our humble opinion, ought to be this year's IRB Player of the Year. Yes, the others may have shined on more occasions, but Parisse's heroics in a team frequently on the wrong end of the scoreline are always a wonder to behold. He has all necessary number eight talents, and his chip and chase capabilities and handling skills have been on show on many an occasion at Stade Fran?ais this season. Can he light up Padova once more?

For Australia: Berrick Barnes has plenty to prove now he is back from injury. He'll be tasked with ensuring the Wallabies stay honest in their game-plan and keeping things ticking over if the pack begins to buckle.

Head to head: The front row is still the area where Australia just can't seem to satisfy anyone, and Italy's is one of the best in the business. It's all very well having the battle sewn up out wide, but that's no use if you can't get the ball. Can Italy's beef snuff out the Wallaby spark? We'll know after the first few scrums.

Recent results:

2006 Australia won 25-18 at Stadio Flaminio
2005 Australia 69-21 at Telstra Dome
2002 Australia won 34-3 at Stadio Marassi
1996 Australia won 40-18 at Stadio Plebiscito
1994 Australia won 20-7 at Olympic Park
1994 Australia won 23-20 at Ballymore
1988 Australia won 55-6 at Stadio Flaminio
1986 Australia won 39-18 at Ballymore
1983 Australia won 29-7 at Stadio Mario Battaglini

Prediction: As Leonardo Ghiraldini said on Thursday, Italy are due a big win soon. It could be this one, against a less than full strength Australia team, but in the final reckoning Australia still have a little too much spark to let it go. Italy valiant in defeat once more and Australia to win by six.

The teams:

Italy: 15 Andrea Masi, 14 Kaine Robertson, 13 Gonzalo Canale, 12 Gonzalo Garcia, 11 Mirco Bergamasco, 10 Andrea Marcato, 9 Pablo Canavosio, 8 Sergio Parisse (captain), 7 Mauro Bergamasco, 6 Josh Sole, 5 Marco Bortolami, 4 Carlo Antonio Del Fava, 3 Carlos Nieto, 2 Leonardo Ghiraldini, 1 Salvatore Perugini.
Replacements: 16 Fabio Ongaro, 17 Matias Aguero, 18 Tommaso Reato, 19 Alessandro Zanni, 20 Giulio Toniolatti, 21 Luciano Orquera, 22 Matteo Pratichetti.

Australia: 15 Adam Ashley-Cooper, 14 Lachie Turner, 13 Stirling Mortlock (c), 12 Timana Tahu, 11 Digby Ioane, 10 Berrick Barnes, 9 Luke Burgess, 8 Richard Brown, 7 Phil Waugh, 6 Dean Mumm, 5 Hugh McMeniman, 4 Mark Chisholm, 3 Matt Dunning, 2 Stephen Moore, 1 Ben Alexander.
Replacements: 16 Tatafu Polota-Nau, 17 Sekope Kepu, 18 Wycliff Palu, 19 David Pocock, 20 Matt Giteau, 21 Quade Cooper, 22 James O'Connor.

Date: Saturday, November 8
Venue: Stadio Euganeo, Padova
Kick-off: 15.00 (14.00 GMT)
Weather: Overcast, warm, barely any wind, but damp underfoot after a couple of days' rain. Perfect!
Referee: Bryce Lawrence (New Zealand)
Touch judges: Craig Joubert (South Africa), Marius Jonker (South Africa)
Television match official: Nigel Whitehouse (Wales)
Assessor: Tappe Henning (South Africa)

By Danny Stephens
 
S

Spook

Guest
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Once again, some dickhead mentions the depowering of the scrum. A blatant lie.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

I wanted to quote him and comment on it, but I can't be bothered. This fella obviously has no idea what he is talking about, and is just biased against JON.

Cue Thommo telling us the O'Neill should keep his mouth shut.

Cue the rest of us telling Thommo how childish a lot of the NH rugby people are being.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

I'd like to say it's the internet that's packed with these wankers, but the streets over here are as well.

I've been waging a war (like here: http://www.therugbyblog.co.uk/time-to-put-the-elvs-to-bed/) but there's an inexhaustible supply of the fuckers all wallowing in a retarded denial of the truth.

If O'Neill or Lote start serving it up next week the press here will explode.
 

Thomond78

Colin Windon (37)
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

You do know Danny Stephens writes for Planet Rugby, yes? And that Planet Rugby is South African, yes?

As for O'Neill - when a man says that democracy in world rugby means doing what two nations want and ignoring the vote of the IRB as to what should or should not be tried, I make no bones about expressing my opinion about him.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Thomond78 said:
You do know Danny Stephens writes for Planet Rugby, yes? And that Planet Rugby is South African, yes?

Would Danny Stephens need to be a South African living in South Africa to be able to write for Planet rugby? No.

Would it matter? No. You can be wrong where-ever you're from or where-ever you live.

Thomond78 said:
As for O'Neill - when a man says that democracy in world rugby means doing what two nations want and ignoring the vote of the IRB as to what should or should not be tried, I make no bones about expressing my opinion about him.

Go for it

If you're talking about the ELVs though it was the IRB as an organisation that originated the ELVs. The Southern Hemisphere trialled them as the IRB had planned and the Northern hemisphere then bottled them. O'Neill's point on that is that the North have broken from the plan. Isn't that a fact?
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Thomond78 said:
As for O'Neill - when a man says that democracy in world rugby means doing what two nations want and ignoring the vote of the IRB as to what should or should not be tried, I make no bones about expressing my opinion about him.

Jeez if you can show me an example of more than two of the big 8 IRB nations actually working together for something beyond their own financial self-interest Thomo, you'll see Beelzebub drive a snow plow to work.


Noddy said:
This'll be a 30 pointer lads.

Very prescient Nodster. 8)
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Agreed, but it's one step on from leaving it all to Latho.

I think our kick return and general full back play took another step back on the weekend.

I cannot see any improvement in AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s play as a full back over the tests this season. He isn't going anywhere. How long is it going to take before we give someone else a go?

Even Turner (despite his failings) showed more full back like skills against Italy, and we know that Mitchell is better at joining the line in attack. Both these players are prone to errors, but Ashley Cooper certainly hasn't shown himself as infallible.
 

Thomond78

Colin Windon (37)
Re: onwards and upwards - Italy

Gagger said:
Thomond78 said:
You do know Danny Stephens writes for Planet Rugby, yes? And that Planet Rugby is South African, yes?

Would Danny Stephens need to be a South African living in South Africa to be able to write for Planet rugby? No.

Would it matter? No. You can be wrong where-ever you're from or where-ever you live.

Thomond78 said:
As for O'Neill - when a man says that democracy in world rugby means doing what two nations want and ignoring the vote of the IRB as to what should or should not be tried, I make no bones about expressing my opinion about him.

Go for it

If you're talking about the ELVs though it was the IRB as an organisation that originated the ELVs. The Southern Hemisphere trialled them as the IRB had planned and the Northern hemisphere then bottled them. O'Neill's point on that is that the North have broken from the plan. Isn't that a fact?

No. It's not.

The SH trialled some in the S14. It trialled some in the 3N. It trialled different ones in the ARC. It trialled different ones in the SA leagues. The NH trialled different ones in the Scottish domestic leagues. The Irish U-20 interpros trialled different ones (albeit they were ones you wouldn't even notice, bar the 5m offside that everyone's okay with).

The results of all those trials were then brought to the IRB meeting, and the votes of world rugby decided which would be trialled. The French and the Scots sold the pass on the maul, for political reasons; the squeeze was applied to Canada financially; the Argentinians, who're in the SH, rejected them absolutely; but, be that as it may, there was a vote taken as to what would be trialled world-wide. Those are the global ELVs, it was decided by the IRB vote, and we're currently playing them here, and everywhere else in the world bar three nations, one of which wants to go to the global ELVs.

The global ELVs are being trialled. Anyone who says different, is lying or just plain ignorant of the facts.

Yet, you'd be hard put to gather this from the line JON has peddled. His approach seems to be that if the ELVs he wants, and especially FKAGG, aren't being trialled worldwide, then none are being trialled, and it's all the NH's fault; so the IRB should then ignore the vote of world rugby, and force it on us all, irrespective of what was voted for. And that's not on.

There was never a plan to trial all 30-odd ELVs together. As far as I know, not even the SH has trialled all of them together - certainly not in the S14 or 3N - and the only place that has is the Maties Koshuis league.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
For what it's worth I thought the ARC laws went to far but the Refs enforced them better than I saw anywhere else. The S14 laws are OK but the Refs let players get away with too much like carrying the ball to slow down free kicks and lots of falling over in the ruck. The ELV's we are playing under now seem like a waste of time they do not improve the game. Sure I like the 5 metre rule and the 22 metre rule, but the ruck and maul rules are a mess.
 

Thomond78

Colin Windon (37)
I was initially a fan of the 22 rule, but there's just been too much aerial ping-pong as a result; I'd drop it. Still, that has come as a result of testing. Trying something like that, fair enough, and no complaints.

The lineout numbers one could be a peach, but it needs mauls to prevent the lineout just being used as a way to get the defence line ten metres further up. Add mauls to the mix, it's a winner.

I'd drop the ones about the receiver having to be two metres away and the hooker not being allowed lift. There was no need for those ELVs, ever. It just adds something for the ref to look at, and removes options in the lineout. Dumb. Get rid of them, simplify things even further - the existing, "If you join the lineout, you have to get it" one worked dandy.

Kill the maul ELV. Dead. It's a fucking disaster.

Keep the 5m one. Although I initially disliked it, as much on moral principles of never helping backs as anything else, it's working fine.
 
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