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On Reds Cards ................................

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Sir Arthur Higgins

Dick Tooth (41)
Hard to blame the ref given the IRB memo sent out.
that said, I would have liked to see him think through the decision for a bit longer. it seemed a bit rushed. he could have consulted his touchies or watched the replay.

tough call for the ref though.
 

Cardiffblue

Jim Lenehan (48)
Whatty, not sure and believe me I've given it some thought.

I hope that I would have asked the touchies. I would certainly have had a go at Dusatoir and having seen the winger repeat the hollywood in the 2nd half I would have been worried about the red card.

I think I'd have given a yellow card but I can understand that Rolland (who wanted to impress and thus have the final) was within his rights to give a red
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Rolland did exactly what was required of him, I am just questioning those instructions, not Rolland's decision
 

louie

Desmond Connor (43)
i love how quick bernie comes in with the shoulder. Thats a number 10 cooper!!!

awesome backline movement too.
 
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pete88

Guest
Good thread. This is a much better debate to be having than slagging off Rolland for doing his job.

I don't think it should be mandatory to go upstairs to award a red. If you see a flying headbutt or massive swinging arm to the face, you know what to do. But the option being there can't hurt. In hindsight, if broadcasters had carried a conversation between Rolland and the TMO where the specific law and IRB directives had been clearly alluded to and a red card then produced, we wouldn't be seeing all the butthurt shit from NH media about the decision, maybe about the laws though.

I think intent should matter, but an unintentionally dangerous moment is still a problem (Quade Cooper and Warburton's tackles in those youtube videos for me were both unintentional but actually quite dangerous, for example, Warburton's tackle gets worse every time I see it). I guess the fact that red cards really ruin rugby matches and you're probably not going to actually hurt someone that badly unles you try quite hard holds a lot of weight though. Would saying "obvious intent or probable intent in a dangerous challenge" is a red card be too much of a fencesitter's answer?
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
if there is a "fence" to sit on then they stay on as far as I care, give they the 10 minutes to calm down and let the judiciary sort it out
 
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pete88

Guest
I was calling myself a fencesitter, I agree benefit of the doubt should favour the yellow card though.

Definitely needs reviewing though, simply because of the gamechanger that the red card was and the shitstorm it conjured.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
What about if refs can only ever give 10 mins but during that 10mins the video ref can decide whether its red or not? It does add to the uncertainty but might produce fairer results.
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
What about if refs can only ever give 10 mins but during that 10mins the video ref can decide whether its red or not? It does add to the uncertainty but might produce fairer results.

It might work. But I reckon it will result in more red cards, not less. Which seems to be what people on here don't want.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
There is no issue with more red cards, as long as they are applied consistently.

The biggest issue with Warburton's sending off is that the same tackle has normally resulted in yellow. If the same tackle had been red all this time, then we would already have seen less of them and likely Warburton wouldn't have gone near that type of tackle.

More red cards will eventually lead to less red cards.
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
The two yellow cards that were given to players for dangerous tackles in previous games in the WC were upgraded to a Red Card offence by the citing commissioner. Players and referees were reminded several times not to use a spear tackle technique because of the dangers involved.

People can whinge about those not being red cards on the spot. But why? To suggest the Sam thought he was getting a yellow for the tackle? That simply can't be the case because everyone knew that those decisions were changed after the game. (also keep in mind that most spear tackles are given red cards on the spot)

Personally I'm on the fence about the TMO ruling on red cards. 10 minutes is a short time to do something like that. I suppose everything is worth a trial, but I'd be very surprised if the complaints stopped. People will still be finding reasons to call the decisions inconsistent.
 

Jethro Tah

Bob Loudon (25)
What about if refs can only ever give 10 mins but during that 10mins the video ref can decide whether its red or not? It does add to the uncertainty but might produce fairer results.

Good one. It is very hard to prove intent but Cutter's idea could work.

Were a poll put up I would be voting the red was deserved based on the rules and the memo as they are written. He clearly intended to lift the player however I doubt he intended to cause neck or head injury. But rather in his youth and inexperience by reflex, when he realised he would be in the shit, he took the hands off approach instead of trying to soften the fall.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
I think this is just a consistency issue.

May I also add the attacking of the head/bending of neck tactics that are practised by some of the saffa super rugby teams are just as bad as any of these tackles, yet they often go unnoticed. I'd like to see the TMO involved more in these incidents.
 

Cardiffblue

Jim Lenehan (48)
Is it me, or are there a helluva lot of head and facial injuries ocurring in this RWC. McCabe has twice come off looking like Crimean veteran, then there was Roberts' nose.
 

Eyes and Ears

Bob Davidson (42)
The video would need to be used, and should be used. It can confirm or deny the refs suspicions regarding the incident and should make the decision making more consistent.

I agree with a previous poster that this would result in more red cards and more games determined by a red card. Is this what we want?

Hard to blame the ref given the IRB memo sent out.
that said, I would have liked to see him think through the decision for a bit longer. it seemed a bit rushed. he could have consulted his touchies or watched the replay.

tough call for the ref though.

I strongly disagree with this. Refereeing is not decision making by committee. I think it makes the referee look like he lacks confidence if he asks his ARs for help on a matter that he has seen.

IMO, this was a Red Card in most games but not in a RWC semi. However had a YC been issued, Wales would probably have made the final and we would have spent the week talking about whether it was fair that Warbuton missed the Final through suspension.
 

Cardiffblue

Jim Lenehan (48)
that would still be preferable to the situation where the french slime their way into RWC. Jesus I do hope the ABs don't ease up but go for maximum pain and embarrassment
 

Cardiffblue

Jim Lenehan (48)
Stuart Barnes in the times so unfortunately can't link it

Warburton rose to the occasion and leaves with his reputation enhanced (Jason O'Brien)
From the ashes of Wales’ heartbreaking 14-man semi-final defeat, a team will rise capable of soaring in song, having their own Hymns and Arias written alongside the great Welsh teams of the 1970s. A team forged by the iron in the soul of one of the World Cup’s outstanding performers, Sam Warburton, their inspirational 23-year-old captain.

On every step of this ultimately agonising Welsh journey through New Zealand, Warburton has led from the front. He reminds me of the young Richie McCaw.

Injuries aside, it would be a shock if he is not captain of the Lions when they next tour New Zealand in 2017. It will be incomprehensible if he is fit for duty and is not chosen to lead the Lions to Australia two years from now.

British and Irish rugby has witnessed the burgeoning of not so much a new talent as another force of nature with a burning will to succeed and a physique with the capacity to take him to the outer limits of what a rugby player might achieve.

Had Warburton not been dismissed, Wales would have been looking forward to taking part in next Sunday’s final, and with a decent chance of winning it, too. To lead a team that the world had dismissed to within a hair’s breadth of a crack at Australia or New Zealand is an astonishing achievement; perhaps even more astonishing than the frequency and the ferocity of his determined defensive drive that so inspired Wales throughout this tournament. It takes an exceptional man to achieve what Warburton has managed in so short a time.

Referee Alain Rolland made the calamitous error but it is the Cardiff flanker who will be haunted by the official’s lack of empathy. Hopefully his manager, Warren Gatland, will console the captain. He does not deserve to feel the pain. The camera cut frequently to the Welsh bench to provide a study in sporting heartbreak; the man who has galvanised Wales on the pitch sat, often with his head in his hands, helplessly looking on as France scraped their way into the final.

Doubtless his night was one of sleepless misery, punishing himself for somebody else’s mistake. He will take the blame that a natural leader accepts as his lot. The man commands by example and others follow. This inspiring and quiet commitment has turned him from Martyn Williams’ Cardiff shadow into captain and leader of his country at such a precocious age. He will be a presence in the European game for the foreseeable future.

Call it his destiny, but Warburton has always been a leader through the various Welsh age groups and the speed with which he has stamped his standards upon Welsh rugby marks him as those rare generational talents: think Brian O’Driscoll, Lawrence Dallaglio, Martin Johnson (the player, not the manager); this is the sort of rarefied level at which he is destined for command performances.

Warburton has an aura. He is reputedly no great orator, but Leigh Halfpenny — another Welsh success — claims that the emotional tug of his scant words forced him to patriotic tears in the different junior Welsh teams the flanker captained with the current Wales full-back by his side. Both are set to soar to where the air is thin.

Warburton is a natural. He may be a man of few words but he has an insatiable demand for work. And what work! While Lewis Moody toiled ineffectively at the breakdown, Warburton has joined the southern hemisphere elite of David Pocock, Richie McCaw and Heinrich Brussow at the high table of outstanding opensides; his ascent to the dark world where descent on the ball is everything has been startling.

Williams, one of the technically most accomplished British players of the past decade, deserves great credit. Warburton’s cunning has been honed, and quickly, by the man he replaced as Wales openside. What Williams could not give him was the physique to take his own cleverness to new dimensions. The youngster’s speed into the tackle on the fringe of the breakdown has been one of the highlights of this tournament.

Kiwis rave about him and no country knows the value of a No 7 more than New Zealand. All the accolades that have come his way are merited but none of them will count for anything as he replays the moment he lifted the French right wing and let him fall to the floor rather than usher him to the ground.

It was a terrible end to a terrific tournament and no consolation should be offered but by the time the dust had settled on Wales’s quarter-final victory over Ireland, British Lions’ supporters already knew the identity of the captain for the 2013 trip to Australia. The possibility of Warburton against Pocock in tandem with the potent Toby Faletau and Sean O’Brien is enough for any supporter to start plotting that trip to Australia now.

Before that, Warburton has the more immediate matter of ensuring his country’s resurgence is not another isolated pocket in the recent history of doomed attempts to restore Wales to the elite of world rugby. Looking at the allies available to him, this seems eminently achievable.

Faletau was utterly heroic at No 8 while Dan Lydiate plays the quiet man Richard Hill role to perfection. Priestland, Jamie Roberts, Jonathan Davies, Halfpenny and the 19-year-old sensation, George North provide Wales with a core for future success. Yes, from those bitter ashes of Eden Park a strong Wales will grow, with Sam Warburton at the very epicentre of it all.
 

Swat

Chilla Wilson (44)
Only read first post (for a change - future pun) but my 2 cents is that it is impossible to determine intent. For me, Quade clearly showed intent when he kneed Richie in the head and yet when it was looked at he was said to not have acted deliberately. If they can fuck that up (clearly showed intent to me and everyone I've talked to) then there is no way intent can be determined consistently, and if there is one thing we've learnt this RWC is that consistency with our referees is the thing that every wants. Sorry Fitzy, but you haven't been making any sense since you decided to start wearing that friggen doo rag on your head...
 
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