pine cone 3
Frank Nicholson (4)
Isn't that the point?
- Status
Isn't that the point?
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
I guess my point was not clear which is: having to sign a deed would turn families off their kid playing union.
Why not let a 15 year old boy play both codes and his family not have to sign anything before he is allowed to play union? People shouldn't assume that such a boy would always make a decision for league. He may just want to try both in his U/16 year and make up his mind later.
Some of these boys, currently, will decide on union when they leave school, but if he can't play union U/16 unless his family signs a deed that he will stay in the code after leaving school, the family of some of them will tell the union people to stick their deed where the sun doesn't shine. Any chance of getting that kid for union will be lost.
It's a long time since my boys were in that age group and they went to a rugby school anyway. But if they had been in a different situation and wanted to play both codes in their U/16 year then some rugby union alickadoo said I had to sign a deed that I had to lock my 15 year old into playing only rugby union when he was 18, I would tell him where to go.
I think most fathers would do the same. Let kids decide for themselves when they are older.
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Why not let a 15 year old boy play both codes and his family not have to sign anything before he is allowed to play union? People shouldn't assume that such a boy would always make a decision for league. He may just want to try both in his U/16 year and make up his mind later.
Some of these boys, currently, will decide on union when they leave school, but if he can't play union U/16 unless his family signs a deed that he will stay in the code after leaving school, the family of some of them will tell the union people to stick their deed where the sun doesn't shine. Any chance of getting that kid for union will be lost.
It's a long time since my boys were in that age group and they went to a rugby school anyway. But if they had been in a different situation and wanted to play both codes in their U/16 year then some rugby union alickadoo said I had to sign a deed that I had to lock my 15 year old into playing only rugby union when he was 18, I would tell him where to go.
I think most fathers would do the same. Let kids decide for themselves when they are older.
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Newbie
Bill McLean (32)
IS,
I am somewhat mystified that you have interpreted my post as being inflammatory! From experience I know it is very easy for posts on forums to be misconstrued however I thought my use of the word “RESPECTFULLY” would have negated such a perception; obviously not! And given that this is not the first time I have encountered such behaviour from you I chose my words carefully. If you assume that someone is being impolite you should at least clarify that this is in fact the position before you attack that person in an offensive and sarcastic manner as you have done here with me! To be honest with you I would have appreciated the benefit of the doubt, and when you accuse someone of being ‘SANCTIMONIOUS’ you should ensure that you understand the meaning of the word of which you accuse them of being (or acting like). I can assure you I wasn’t intending to convey such a demeanour. Nevertheless let’s qualify my post?
First and foremost nowhere did I accuse you of not reading my post, I merely asked that you read it properly (as in reading it between the lines). As my posted stated, “[a] high profile person in Rugby had given assurances [to a lad] that if he were to come across to Rugby he could be guaranteed a position in one of Australian School’s teams!” I’m sorry but how can my statement not connote that the person had authority; ultimately who in their right mind, and having a high profile within rugby, would go up and make such a promise without having authority? It beggars belief. In addition be careful when you state “that high profile does not equate with authority to bind the ASRFU or the ARU”, I think you might need to familiarise yourself with Parts 2B.1 & 2B.2 of the Corporations Act 2001 and the attendant case law, especially where apparent or ostensible authority may exist.
And besides I then later “[h]oped that [the people in this site] would take my word, as I believed I had a good reputation in this site…” When have I ever told a deliberate untruth in here? Never! The person to whom i am referring has the power, please give me the benefit of the doubt! On a final note there is no need for sarcasm, and to show there is no hard feelings please find the ‘Horne’ article I was referring to extracted below. It make interesting reading.
How Rob Horne was almost lost to a rival code
Iain Payten
The Daily Telegraph
29 May 2010
Rob Horne was always one of those kids. You know, the one eye-catching youngster amid all the battling tykes who is born with the footy gene. "He was the sort of kid you just tried to get the ball in his hands as much as possible because you knew he was going to score, or do something special," recalls former Dragons and Sharks star Lance Thompson.
Thompson was among the first to spot Horne's talent. As his junior rugby league coach at Hurstville United, Thompson guided the skinny kid through his early tween-age years in a team that also contained future Dragons first grader Chase Stanley. He sensed something.
"He was playing both rugby union and league at the time. Sometimes he'd finish up one game and race over to play for us on the same day," Thompson says. "He was a special kid. That was obvious. He would have made it in either code."
This week, in what is an alarmingly short time later, Horne "made it" when selected in the Wallabies 30-man squad for the June Tests. The talented 20-year-old centre is set for a Wallabies debut in Canberra, but there was a time when Horne was contemplating whether his future lay - at Thompson's urging - in the Red V and the NRL.
"I grew up in the St George area and playing for their junior [league] teams," Horne said this week. At the same time, however, Horne was playing rugby for Oatley and Southern Districts juniors in rugby. And just as Thompson observed, the shine in the future star was plain to see when ARU National Talent Squad boss Manu Sutherland stumbled unawares across Horne at age 14.
"I turned up at this Oatley game and saw Rob play. I thought: "Who's this?" and made inquiries afterwards," Sutherland remembers. Horne was invited into the NTS junior program but with the rookie centre/five-eighth also playing Harold Matthews for St George, the Dragons were interested as well. A decision loomed.
"All of a sudden on the Saturday I was playing Southern Districts and on the Sunday for St George, and it came to a point when I was 16 where you can't keep it up. It is too physically taxing. I thought I had to make a decision because I can't keep doing both," Horne says.
It wasn't exactly a tug-of-war but Sutherland sold rugby's NTS as "as good or better as league's pathway" but in the end, Horne's decision was simple. "I was playing rugby first and I saw myself more as a rugby player playing league. I guess I was just suited to rugby more, the way it flows. It is a bit more off the cuff," Horne says.
It was a win for rugby. Just three years later, the time in the NTS program delivered Horne to the Waratahs as a strong athlete, and he made his NSW debut as an 18-year-old. Another three years on Horne has progressed to a likely Wallabies debut.
After impressing coach Robbie Deans to fight back hamstring problems and turn in consistently strong Super 14 form, Horne has swiftly emerged as the heir apparent to Stirling Mortlock as the long-term Wallabies outside-centre.
A big future awaits, which Thompson could have told you years ago.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I did not say you were lying I said that irrespective of whether he did or did not have the power it was a disgrace because if he had the power he was bypassing the accepted channels and if he didn't he was misleading the kid. Doesn't seem to me like he is a suitable repository of the power.
It's actually the asru and it's not a corporation. But since you seem to have some knowledge you'd be aware that the person claiming the ostensible authority cannot be the source of authority as well.
That's all well off the point.
These issues must be addressed at their source not by tinkering at the edge trying to persuade a lone kid to play union not league.
If you want to compete with the AB s the game has to become more open to non private school kids.
The suggestion that lance Thomson was a star in league detracted from the legitimacy of hat article somewhat. I question based on his defence wether Horne would make it in league.
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It's actually the asru and it's not a corporation. But since you seem to have some knowledge you'd be aware that the person claiming the ostensible authority cannot be the source of authority as well.
That's all well off the point.
These issues must be addressed at their source not by tinkering at the edge trying to persuade a lone kid to play union not league.
If you want to compete with the AB s the game has to become more open to non private school kids.
The suggestion that lance Thomson was a star in league detracted from the legitimacy of hat article somewhat. I question based on his defence wether Horne would make it in league.
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Newbie
Bill McLean (32)
IS,
Those pleading ostensible authority are usually the people who have placed reliance upon a statement (in this case 'a position in the oz schools team'); acted upon the statement to the their detriment (in this case the lad opting, as Horne did, to walk away from a guaranteed league deal); and suffering loss if the promise does not come to fruition.
I cannot say anymore on the subject, as anything further would reveal too much! As stated before please take word that it happened!
With respect to defence i dont think the Dragons would have cared. They contracted Soward did they not ... lol!
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
I don't want to get into an argument between IS and Newbie about Horne but that is a good story about Rob Dog. I had seen it before and saved the link.
What the article doesn't mention is what was written in an earlier Telegraph article, by Jon Geddes - that he went to a school that didn't offer rugby union. When he was picked for Oz Schools he was playing for Southern Districts Colts though still at school at Georges River College.
Mind you nobody would have been in any doubt about his ability if they saw him play for the NSW U/16 team.
I wouldn't worry too much about his missing tackles. Many of the ones he missed this year were because he was rushing out too much to herd ball runners inside into his team mates. I hadn't noticed that before this year except in that Barbarians game against Canada before the RWC.
Man on man he is pretty good and that's is what is needed more in rugby league. He wouldn't have any trouble playing that game and if he did, at least it would be playing for my team, the Dragons.
We are lucky to have him.
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What the article doesn't mention is what was written in an earlier Telegraph article, by Jon Geddes - that he went to a school that didn't offer rugby union. When he was picked for Oz Schools he was playing for Southern Districts Colts though still at school at Georges River College.
Mind you nobody would have been in any doubt about his ability if they saw him play for the NSW U/16 team.
I wouldn't worry too much about his missing tackles. Many of the ones he missed this year were because he was rushing out too much to herd ball runners inside into his team mates. I hadn't noticed that before this year except in that Barbarians game against Canada before the RWC.
Man on man he is pretty good and that's is what is needed more in rugby league. He wouldn't have any trouble playing that game and if he did, at least it would be playing for my team, the Dragons.
We are lucky to have him.
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I like to watch
David Codey (61)
I agree 16 is too young, however I firmly believe in the Opens that kids(or men as most are 18) need to pick and stick.
The example of a kid selected for the UK tour in 2009? was featured on a NRL club website in the player profile section as a new signing.
Much embarrassment,some difficult questions asked and answered correctly so he tours. and apparently then signed with the Sharks on his return!
That should never be allowed to happen again.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Fair enough but I was responding to the matter as it pertained to U/16s.
Discussion on on the matter for Opens is different: on the one hand you have players who you know are committed to league and many of these were recruited by the schools from league in the first place, especially north of the border. [But some of them get the union virus and drift away from the Dark Side of the Force.]
On the other hand you have the view that if a kid has represented his school for so many years and has been a good representative for his school, he deserves to picked for his state and if so, his country.
This probably deserves its own thread but meantime let's agree that U/16 is too young to ban anybody from selection in rep teams.
Banning in opens is another matter, but requiring players or their families to sign deeds that boys won't play league when they leave school won't work in practical terms whatever any Act says.
IMO
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Discussion on on the matter for Opens is different: on the one hand you have players who you know are committed to league and many of these were recruited by the schools from league in the first place, especially north of the border. [But some of them get the union virus and drift away from the Dark Side of the Force.]
On the other hand you have the view that if a kid has represented his school for so many years and has been a good representative for his school, he deserves to picked for his state and if so, his country.
This probably deserves its own thread but meantime let's agree that U/16 is too young to ban anybody from selection in rep teams.
Banning in opens is another matter, but requiring players or their families to sign deeds that boys won't play league when they leave school won't work in practical terms whatever any Act says.
IMO
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Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
That's not what it would say. It would say that if he signs a contract to play league within, say, 3 years he would repay $xx spent on his development by union: it's a bit like HECS-union has provided some training at a cost to it, he's now going to generate income based partly on what he learnt in union so he can repay some of what it cost to get him to that point. The ARU is not (officially) a charity.
I can see the argument that 16 is too young but you have to bear in mind that a kid more wedded to the game misses out and these are not weekly events - they can still play union.
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I can see the argument that 16 is too young but you have to bear in mind that a kid more wedded to the game misses out and these are not weekly events - they can still play union.
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Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
My last words on the matter are that if a boy has played both league and union he or his parents would not sign such a deed and any hope of retaining the boy, especially one in his U/16 year, will be lost.
Who can say what the amount should be if he has played both sports?
This is one of those theoretical things that people mention in forums but would never work in practical terms. Parents and older players would be reluctant to be parties to such a deed when there is no such requirement in the other code.
Getting them to sign a contract is one thing but to sign a deed to reimburse money if they leave the union code when they have played both codes all their young lives? I don't think it will work.
You do, and that's fine.
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Who can say what the amount should be if he has played both sports?
This is one of those theoretical things that people mention in forums but would never work in practical terms. Parents and older players would be reluctant to be parties to such a deed when there is no such requirement in the other code.
Getting them to sign a contract is one thing but to sign a deed to reimburse money if they leave the union code when they have played both codes all their young lives? I don't think it will work.
You do, and that's fine.
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no9
Ted Fahey (11)
who?
Budgie
Chris McKivat (8)
Are there no boys on the radar for selection from Sydney junior village clubs?
Are there no nsw country boys (village club or school) capable of gaining a place?
Are there any of these boys above playing for School AND village club?
Is the loophole still available for a pathway to the NSW team via either NSW Schools OR NSW Juniors for village club playing GPS/ISA/CHS/CCC boys.
random2
Johnnie Wallace (23)
I have no idea of how it will work this year but this was more of a NSW schools team. Hopefully this year though they pick a NSW 1s and 2s team (although i doubt they will). Im pretty sure only 3 are, guess who?
Budgie
Chris McKivat (8)
Not sure about this year but many of the boys above were playing village club last year as well, and played NSW JRU state champs.
Some Schools tend to get a little more protective about their 16a players and wrap them up in cotton wool and prevent them/ discourage them from playing 16's for the village clubs.
Playing for club and school does not seem to be such a big issue at the 15's level for the Schools.
Some Schools tend to get a little more protective about their 16a players and wrap them up in cotton wool and prevent them/ discourage them from playing 16's for the village clubs.
Playing for club and school does not seem to be such a big issue at the 15's level for the Schools.
random2
Johnnie Wallace (23)
Not many boys are playing club because in 16s the rules change and you can play in State Champs if you played last year. Most boys i know chose not play club as school is far more important and they can still play at State Champs anyway.
10to12
Jimmy Flynn (14)
Random you haven't fallen to far from the 2011 state tree, but imo a few ???. Jum W maybe too small to be packing down in the second row and huge competition to be a loosie. Johnnie W definite loosie which teams Angus C in at lock with James Lough (St Aug) and or Hugh Summerhayes (Cranbrook??).
Barker 16s half back Steve will have to be in the mix. Jonty Manly5/8 ahead of Smeardon(maturing but plays too deep).
Rory V with his skill set much more suited to the wing. I will apologise to all those I don't know and haven't mentioned . Just lucky the selectors get around to a lot more games than I do.
R
Robertson
Guest
filling in at number 3 could be Vnipola from newington 2nd XV, has had a couple of great games this season and is being compared to Oscar Pryor Lees
O
OldBoy61
Guest
What about Ben Crerar? Definitely on the cards as a no. 10. Brilliant vision and has developed significantly since last year.
Also from NSW SJRU State Championship teams and village club level, Marlins have a few dark horses that have matured since last year. James Reid in the 2 row recently made the North Harbour team in the CAS Competition, an outstanding performer so far this season. Also, openside flanker Henry Lynch has come out of his shell in 2012, shining as one of the better flankers in the club competition. Although certainly not at the level of Burkett, he has the passion, intensity and skill to give Nic a run for his money in the near future. It will be interesting to see how these boys perform next weekend at State Champs, and if their skill can surpass the level of politics and their current status as unknowns.
Also from NSW SJRU State Championship teams and village club level, Marlins have a few dark horses that have matured since last year. James Reid in the 2 row recently made the North Harbour team in the CAS Competition, an outstanding performer so far this season. Also, openside flanker Henry Lynch has come out of his shell in 2012, shining as one of the better flankers in the club competition. Although certainly not at the level of Burkett, he has the passion, intensity and skill to give Nic a run for his money in the near future. It will be interesting to see how these boys perform next weekend at State Champs, and if their skill can surpass the level of politics and their current status as unknowns.
- Status