NSW Schools - Trial Games and Selections 2013

[Sideline Eye]

Crikey, the I's game was a little closer than I expected.

Was there any rain during the game?

CHS stocks may have risen somewhat for the big showdown on Friday with GPS.

Were Tepai and Taane (Terrific Twins) in the GPS team today or had the evil Mungo U18 State of Origin masters got their hands on them?

Tepai and Taane were listed in the program and I'm pretty sure they were on all game. There was no rain, apart from the last 5 minutes or so, but there was quite a good shower during IIs, so the ball and ground were a bit slippery.

A good match, and GPS certainly didn't dominate. IMHO I thought there were a couple of soft tries for GPS in there. The GPS boys showed flashes of brilliance, but they had difficulty keeping their momentum going. The penalty count certainly went CAS's way, and one GPS player was given a yellow card for repeated infringements (diving over the ball off feet, I think).

Based on that performance, CHS will really give them a shake up, but I wouldn't bank on two shaky outings like that in a row from GPS. Looking forward to Friday's fixtures at Curagul ground.

 

[Sideline Eye]

Sideline Eye missed out ULU (CCC) from his initial listing, most likely by accident.

IIRC the CHS v CCC game was very wet so perhaps a valid comparison between hookers can't be made using the Craig (CHS) benchmark. / snip /

If Brian is on the money, which of Craig or Ulu should be the #2 for the Is?

The CCC v CHS 1s game had no rain during the match at all, only rained prior to the match, and once the pumps got going at Forshaw Park, the ground was in great condition. I think the score was something like 60-7, so CHS had a very convincing win that day and their forward pack was very dominant. Ulu played well, threw well (with one or two exceptions) and kept pace with the rest of the forward pack - a sound game. Craig had a solid game, perfect lineout throws, often first to the breakdown and lots of good cleaning out. Seems to get one or two turnovers most games.

CHS 1s V CAS 1s was a 25-10 win to CHs in perfect conditions, and the forwards were again dominant in set plays and around the ground. Craig saved one try in that match, holding an attacking player up over the line, threw straight every time, made a few short barging runs, and got at least two turnovers in general play - he's strong over the ball at the breakdown.

ISA 1s defeated CHS 1s last Sunday, but by all reports in these forums, CHS lost it in the backs, and the CHS forwards probably had the edge on the ISA pack. Craig contributed to that forward dominance, with no mistakes I can recall, though nothing outstanding in terms of line breaks or bone jarring tackles. A solid performance nevertheless.

Based on this rundown of past games, seems the CHS #2 might be coming out on top of CCC's #2.

I saw Koutsoukis and Serhon today at Knox. Koutsoukis penalised for a crooked throw or two. He seemed good in general play throughout the game, though nothing exceptional (unless it was him that scored the forwards try near the end of the match, falling over the line from the back of a ruck?). Serhon seemed competent and up to the task, but I didn't see anything exceptional.

As Hugh J says, it will be interesting to see Friday's games with Craig vs Serhon and Koutsoukis vs Edwards...

Keen for other thoughts / observations on the battle for the #2 spots.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Results to date:
Sunday 2 June
CHS II 63 AICES 0 [2012 CHS II 45 AICES 0]
CHS I 56 CCC 7 [2012 CHS I 34 CCC 3]

Thursday 6 June
CAS II 36 CHS II 26 [2012 CAS II 38 CHS II 10]
CHS I 25 CAS I 10 [2012 CAS I 29 CHS I 0]

Sunday 16 June
NSW Cnty 25 CHS II 19 [2012 NSW Cnty 24 CHS II 10]
ISA II 38 CCC 38 [2012 ISA II 15 CCC 14]
ISA I 43 vs CHS I 22 [2012 CHS I 20 ISA I 19]

Tuesday 18 June
AICES v GPS III No game [2012 GPS III 97 AICES 0]
GPS II 31 CAS II 0 [2012 GPS II 36 CAS II 25]
GPS I 29 CAS I 14 [2012 GPS I 35 CAS I 12]

Results to come:
Friday 21 June
CAS II v AICES 09:45 [2012 NSW Cnty 64 AICES 5]
GPS III v CCC 10:55 [2012 CCC 17 GPS III 14]
NSW Cnty v ISA II 12:05 [2012 CAS II 29 ISA II 21]
GPS II v CHS II 13:15 [2012 GPS II 38 CHS II 7]
CAS I vs ISA I 14:25 [2012 CAS I 47 ISA I 7]
CHS I v GPS I 15:35 [2012 GPS I 47 CHS I 3]

NSW Schools I and II team announcements in Saturdays Papers

 

[Sideline Eye]

Results to come:
Friday 21 June
CAS II v AICES 09:45 [2012 NSW Cnty 64 AICES 5]
GPS III v CCC 10:55 [2012 CCC 17 GPS III 14]
NSW Cnty v ISA II 12:05 [2012 CAS II 29 ISA II 21]
GPS II v CHS II 13:15 [2012 GPS II 38 CHS II 7]
CAS I vs ISA I 14:25 [2012 CAS I 47 ISA I 7]
CHS I v GPS I 15:35 [2012 GPS I 47 CHS I 3]

NSW Schools I and II team announcements in Saturdays Papers

Given newspaper deadlines, not much time here for selectors to meet and discuss final selections or make last minute changes after the final match on Friday... I wonder how much the outcomes of / performances in Friday's games will influence selections? Can someone more familiar with the selection process for the NSW Schools sides tell me how much of selection is predetermined by previous form, familiarity with players and performance outside of these trials, and how much is based on actual form, ability and performance demonstrated in these trial games?

 

[Newbie]

... ... ... Were Tepai and Taane (Terrific Twins) in the GPS team today or had the evil Mungo U18 State of Origin masters got their hands on them?

Adding a little more to Sideline's observation, I can confirm that both boys were a no show at the NSWRL U/18's medical tonight, so it would strongly indicate that rugby was the winner and that the dynamic duo played!

I personally didn't go to the game (that area during peak hour is abdominal), besides, and as Brian Westlake will attest, I don't even travel that far for my annual holidays.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Reminder that the main purpose of the Trials is to allow the NSW Schools RU selectors to select their teams for the Australian Schools RU Championships.

Two teams, NSW I and NSW II, will be published on Saturday Morning.

Inter-Association bragging rights from the games are a simple by-product of the selection trials.

Who is keen to have a go at being the Keyboard Selector.

NSW Schools Rugby 1st XV 2013 (based on 2012 selected players retaining form)
All those named from 2012 are in their association I team this year unless identified in blue
1 Faaope Satui Trinity Grammar School
2 Max Cook St Augustines (2013 ISA II)
3 Matthew Sandell St Joseph’s College
4
5 Harrison Williams St Aloysius College (2013 Injured?)
6 Jack McCalman The Kings School (2013 GPS II)
7 Brandon Paenga-Amosa Endeavour Sports High
8 Arthur Currie St Gregory's Campbelltown (2013 Playing as a 12 for ISA I)
9 Joey Lussick Newington College
10 Corey Tulloch The Kings School (2013 GPS III)
11 Charlie Taylor St Augustine’s College
12 Tepai Meoroa Newington College
13 Taane Milne Newington College
14 Andrew Kellaway The Scots College
15 Harry Jones Barker College
16 Hosea Fotukava St Ignatius College Riverview (2013 GPS III)
17
18 Adrian DeLore (Whitebridge HS - NSW) (10)
19 Will Davies The Kings School (13) (2013 GPS II)
20
21
22
23

Note: this list is players who played NSWI/II and Combined States last year only, slotting into possible positions in NSW I.
Previous selection is no guarantee of 2013 selections.

 

[Sideline Eye]

Thought it might be interesting to see which boys in the NSW Schools Association Sides were selected in the 41 man training squad for the Sydney side to play Country, from the State Cup a couple of weekends ago. There are a few.

[Source: '2013 NSW State Cup' thread. :: George Smith and Hugh Jarse]

[/Quote:
A quick look at this year's trialists and which of them represented last year at Zone or higher.

U17 Sydney Trialists
Aidan Hopping, Penrith
Aisea Tukipilli, Warringah (2012: NSW Schools) (ISA I)
Andrew Davies, Warringah
Angus Gutteridge, Southern Districts (2012: SZ, Syd 16s)
Austin Black West, Harbour (2012: WZ, Syd 16s)
Ben Crerar, Manly (2012: SZ, NSW Schools) (CHS II)
Ben Fontaine, Warringah (ISA II)
Conner Doherty, Warringah
Connor Davidson, Manly (2012: NSW Schools) (ISA II)
Dan Cosgrove, Eastwood
Declan Moore, Manly (2012: BB, NSW Schools) (ISA II)
Ed Craig, Eastwood (2012: WZ) (CHS I)
Epalahane Tali, West Harbour
George Corias, West Harbour (2012: SZ) (CAS II)
Harrison Lowe, Manly
Harry Fox, Gordon
Harry Rowe, Penrith (CHS I)
Jack Conen, Southern Districts (2012: SZ)
Jacob Bamford, Eastwood (2012: WZ)
Jonte Kaplan, Manly (2012: BB) (ISA II)
Josh Lynch, Eastwood (2012: WZ)
Josh Martin, Penrith
Josh Thornton, Warringah
Lachlan Burland, Eastwood (2012: WZ)
Lochie Adair, West Harbour (2012: NZ)
Maumau Bruce Monu, West Harbour
Mitchell Caldwell, Eastwood
Nareg Nazarian, Eastwood
Nick Newman, Manly
Nico Fiapuleniko, Eastwood (2012: WZ) (CCC)
Robert Hill, Warringah
Rohan Zebib, Eastwood (2012: WZ) (AICES)
Scott Moran, Manly
Scott Williams, Manly
Sione Afu, Manly
Tevita Moeakiola, West Harbour
Thomas Graham, Eastwood
Thomas Hall, Eastwood
Tommy Sawden, West Harbour (2012: NSW Cnty U16)
Tully Macpherson, Penrith
William Cronin, Manly (2012: BB)

Thanks for your database skills George Smith. In Red are the 2013 Open Schoolboys Team Representatives that have been posted on Gaggerland. [/Unquote]

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The Sydney Juniors train on list for under 17 age group is little use when looking at form for the NSW Schools Under 18 age group.

The selection arrangements for the Sydney Under 17 could only be described as flawed and amateur. From what I have seen the NSW Schools Selection Process is competent, transparent, objective and professional.

There is a fair bit of debate on the NSW State Cup thread about how the Under 17 selections and very little of it is complementary, and further it is largely irrelevant to this thread where we are discussing under 18 year olds from all over the State. Anyone in need of a good laugh is encouraged to head off to that thread.

If anything to compare apples with apples you should also post up the previous years Under 17 squad and the NSW State Under 17's. so you have both age cohorts covered, and you include both Sydney and Country Juniors gene pools.

Lots of kids attend Under 16 State champs because it gives them two pathways for selection for the National U16's. The vast majority of the players then disappear into the School 1st XV system never to be seen again by the Juniors because there is no advantage to them or the School to have them play club rugby. This exodus of talent effectively reduces the Juniors Opens competition to a shadow of itself.

Many of the players at non-rugby schools head into Colts programmes early as they seek a challenging level of rugby not available on the Juniors pathway. These players like Paenga-Amosa reappear for the Schools Selectors only.

 

[Sideline Eye]

The Sydney Juniors train on list for under 17 age group is little use when looking at form for the NSW Schools Under 18 age group.

Fair call. Complicated isn't it...

 

[sootyanddave]

My impressions on last nights games were
CAS Forwards were much improved.Perhaps injuries last week during the game flattered the CHS pack?
I thought the GPS II's halves were significantly better performed than the I's boys.
Surprising to see a GPS 1's 9 that is not comfortable passing both sides!
I was confused as to the GPS backs tactics.They continually tried to play "pretty"..Just get the 10 to play flat with the big unit running an unders line.They did it once last night near the try line & 5 points!

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Fair call. Complicated isn't it.

Good thing you didn't get me fired up about the spaghetti system that is the Under 16 pathway! You would see a decent rant and a half if that were the case.

Just see what I have posted elsewhere.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Given newspaper deadlines, not much time here for selectors to meet and discuss final selections or make last minute changes after the final match on Friday. I wonder how much the outcomes of / performances in Friday's games will influence selections? Can someone more familiar with the selection process for the NSW Schools sides tell me how much of selection is predetermined by previous form, familiarity with players and performance outside of these trials, and how much is based on actual form, ability and performance demonstrated in these trial games?

NSW Schools have a veritable tribe of assistant selectors at the games. The key games between the I's teams will typically have about 15 - 20+ "clipboards" watching the game in detail. Most of these will be assessing one functional group in detail such as Front row, wings, loose forwards etc. Others will be assessing the "vibe" of the game and how the players performed against more general aspects of the game.

At the end of the days games the clipboard panel will discuss performances under the coordination of the head selector. It is a long day for them, but ultimately the idea is to whittle down the number of contenders for the positions as the trials unfold.

The Selectors know most of the boys and what they are capable of, but the briefing at the start from the head selector is to select based on observations at the trials, not reputation or past performances. The propensity of the previous incumbents to get selected again is not based on bias, but the fact that they have generally continued to challenge themselves over the season, and have maintained their comparative advantage over the other boys. Plenty of (rightly) proud parents perceive this as bias against their boys who are struggling to "break in". Just because the selector doesn't see the same awesomeness in your boy that you do, doesn't mean that the Selector is sh!t, or that your boy is likewise sh!t.

With regard to "tainting" the process by introducing reputation, familiarity or performances from games outside the trials etc, at best a Selector may tell another that player X should be watched a little more closely because they seem to have picked up a yard or 5 in pace since last year, or aren't dropping off tackles like they used to or .... The Selectors still need to observe that during the games they see, and like boxing judges, those observations need to be recorded by more than one person. Humans are involved, so there will always be things missed but it appears to be rather fair, objective, and performance based.

Many of the selectors see a lot more footy than spectators, and IMHO are more committed to the success of the team they select than how many kids they "get in" from their school. If that means that their 1stXV captain is not chosen in the I's because there is a smokie from CCC that played a better trial than their "golden boy" then they will have no problems selecting the CCC smokie.

How do they get the lists finalised so quickly to meet the deadlines for the Papers on Saturday?
Basically they are good at their job. They are extremely efficient and are using a procedure that has heen proven to work over many years.

Above is how "the system" was describe to me a year or two back.

Looking around the grandstands and sidelines, I see the same sorts of groupings of people with clipboards doing the same sort of things as they did when I was a little closer to the selection process than I am now. On that basis I can only assume that the process is still as above or remarkably similar.

 

[silverarrow]

My impressions on last nights games were
CAS Forwards were much improved.Perhaps injuries last week during the game flattered the CHS pack?

Totally agree. Couple of factors at play here. 1. Almost all the forwards managed to stay on the paddock for this game (think exception was Barton Heeney concussed?) so that helped the CAS structure (unlike last game when the lost seven players); and 2. 2nd game together.
In my opinion there were a couple of soft tries to GPS (perhaps made so by speed and size of GPS backline). But taking them out the CAS forwards were on top of the their GPS counterparts. Scrums even in first half but in 2nd half CAS dominant. The first 15 mins of the second half was really great stuff by CAS. Game was played almost entirely down at the GPS end with CAS having several attempts held up. When Ben O'Donnell came on after half time as inside centre (21) he added a great deal of spark.

Best from CAS imo: Satui, Koutsoukis, Heeney till he came off, Akopian, Jones, O'Donnell (2nd half)

 

[Brian Westlake]

Sideline Eye missed out ULU (CCC) from his initial listing, most likely by accident. CCC are not a traditional rugby powerhouse association and are often mistakenly overlooked as a consequence when assembling a list of players.

IIRC the CHS v CCC game was very wet so perhaps a valid comparison between hookers can't be made using the Craig (CHS) benchmark.

If Brian is on the money, which of Craig or Ulu should be the #2 for the I's?

IIRC CCC last got a member in NSW Schools in 2010 with James Dargaville.

IMHO I think that the little things that I have seen Craig do v the others has him as the smokey for 1's. I can't see anybody carrying on as per selection of a hooker last year in one of the teams Now THAT was fun to watch IIRC...

 

[Brian Westlake]

Adding a little more to Sideline's observation, I can confirm that both boys were a no show at the NSWRL U/18's medical tonight, so it would strongly indicate that rugby was the winner and that the dynamic duo played!

I personally didn't go to the game (that area during peak hour is abdominal), besides, and as Brian Westlake will attest, I don't even travel that far for my annual holidays.

Holidays? HOLIDAYS? Luxury... Noon oof thart in ma daes lud. Bloooody luxury...

 

[I like to watch]

Totally agree. Couple of factors at play here. 1. Almost all the forwards managed to stay on the paddock for this game (think exception was Barton Heeney concussed?) so that helped the CAS structure (unlike last game when the lost seven players); and 2. 2nd game together.
In my opinion there were a couple of soft tries to GPS (perhaps made so by speed and size of GPS backline). But taking them out the CAS forwards were on top of the their GPS counterparts. Scrums even in first half but in 2nd half CAS dominant. The first 15 mins of the second half was really great stuff by CAS. Game was played almost entirely down at the GPS end with CAS having several attempts held up. When Ben O'Donnell came on after half time as inside centre (21) he added a great deal of spark.

Best from CAS imo: Satui, Koutsoukis, Heeney till he came off, Akopian, Jones, O'Donnell (2nd half)

But you can't take them out, they happened.
I thought CAS played well last night,I also think 5 tries to 2 was an accurate reflection of how the game was played.
Both CAS tries were pigs tries,which also reflects accurately the relative strengths of the team last night.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Interesting that the "big debate" seems to be around the #2. The opinion polls seem to be in CHS#2 Craig's favour so far, but there are some key head to heads coming up on Friday. Myself, provided they can throw reliably and accurately, I'd toss a coin over who gets the gig. The reality is that the teams each need 2 hookers named in the squad so the chances are fairly good that there will be a mix of new blood and returning veterans when the teams are finally announced. From there the lads will get a further chance to showcase their skills at Nationals at a higher level of intensity. Regardless of whether they are bench or starting in the Squad list, the competition rules state that all players must get a run on start at some stage over the tournament.

I think that the success of a side is determined more by the loosies (particularly #7) and the #9/#10 combination than any other positions.

CHS#7 Paenga-Amosa has to be the leading contender for the NSW I's #7 jumper based on what I have seen so far. He is quick, seldom misses tackles, links well, and is like the Rock of Gibraltar over the ball in the breakdown contest.

#9 and #10 seems to be an open market.
Of those on display on Sunday, the ISA I #10 while small seemed to be a decent sort of playmaker and was probably the pick of the bunch. His size may count against him.
Not having seem the CAS or GPS lads at trial, I'll reserve my judgement until Friday.

 

[biggameplayer]

CHS#7 Paenga-Amosa has to be the leading contender for the NSW I's #7 jumper based on what I have seen so far. He is quick, seldom misses tackles, links well, and is like the Rock of Gibraltar over the ball in the breakdown contest.

I totally agree with this choice Jarse. Having seen him play over the last few years, he is one of the best players in this age group. It seems as if his biggest competitors will be: the GPS 1 number 7, Dunbar (S), who is quite a different player, providing much more of a link role and a dominant running game. GPS 2 number 6, Jack McCalman who is quite quick around the breakdown and provides a good support game. However, his slight stature may come against him for higher rep honours, nonetheless, I'm tipping him to be in the mix. I also like the look of Jum Woodhill, the GPS 2 number 7, who is only 17 this year. He too is quick to the breakdown and provides a solid running game.

Having not seen the CAS 7 or the ISA 7, it is hard to comment on these boys, however, earlier reports suggest that they too will be creating selection headaches for Papahatzis et al, especially from the sounds of it the ISA 7.

 

[Sideline Eye]

Above is how "the system" was describe to me a year or two back.

Looking around the grandstands and sidelines, I see the same sorts of groupings of people with clipboards doing the same sort of things as they did when I was a little closer to the selection process than I am now. On that basis I can only assume that the process is still as above or remarkably similar.

Thanks Hugh, great rundown on the selection system. If it operates as outlined, sounds good and fair. Obviously the 'tried and tested' players will often win out when there's a toss-up, but sounds like there is a good system of checks and balances in place. In selections of any type, the more on the panel for different views and observations the better, so great they have so many eyes on the paddock.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The Aust Schools Selection system is shrouded in even more secrecy, with more eyes involved, plus they have the might of the ARU HPU resources behind them AND the game videos are analysed frame by frame.

While lots of Aust Schoolboy Players go on to be just average club footy players, selection into the Schoolboys is certainly treated as if it was a fairly high stakes poker game.

People still cry "we waz robbed".