NSW GPS expansion

[RugbyFuture]

I Heard both Lachlan Macquarie and Sir Henry Parkes where both heavily anti catholic and campaigned against them...

 

[Runner]

What we want is better school rugby for all. Each group, GPS, CAS, ISA etc have strengthens and weaknesses. For various reasons school will have periods of strength and then fall away a bit for a time. Mentioned in other forums to strengthen rugby ; a match up between leading teams in each competition might be interesting. Augustines from ISA are strong at the moment and have overcome both Knox and Joeys recently. The Waratah Shield for example gives many schools not part of these more elite GPS systems a chance to play each other.

 

[Joe Mac]

I agree with previous posts, GPS is more than just a rugby competition and they would never drop a school like High or Grammar just because of rugby.

That said, a promotion relegation structure for the rugby system would be fantastic. It would greatly add to the excitement of schoolboy rugby.

 

[T.Rugby]

In Queensland we have similar situation where Downlands College has for years been trying for admittance to the GPS>
As Lindo mentioned, it is more than rugby.
The GPS membership is based on a very broad yet strict and definable standards of sport, academia, cultural and pastoral education.
There is no way Downlands will be admitted they just do not in any sense of measure do the things that GPS requires. In a similar yet opposite fashion, Ipswich is running close to expulsion as their standards in a number of areas have slipped dramatically yet sportswise they are competitive to an above average degree.
In short, you can crave the amalgamation of rugby as long as you want but admittance to the GPS fold is even more exclusive than having been a student at one and that is a big reason why the old school tie is so important - rightly or wrongly it is a system that is proudly and vehnemently protected.

yeh, i understand as im sure it would be a similar criteria for entry into the cas. that being said though.... i cant actually think of a reason excluding rowing and the fact that knox wasnt started in the 19th century that would prevent it from joining the gps... culturally it is very similar to shore and other north shore gps schools and with regards to sports and academia it is up there!

 

[I like to watch]

T Rugby, close but no cigar.
You know deep down that Knox falls short of what is needed to be GPS material.
Like it or not, the reality is that The GPS Schools get a competitive advantage in the marketplace by virtue of their association with the GPS brand.They are not going to dilute the brand. Knox will never be a GPS School.

 

[RugbyFuture]

lets slow down, i don't think the CAS brand is that much lower than the GPS Academia and social needs are rated above the GPS

 

[Lee Grant]

Let's talk about the rugby and not the academics please.

I'm sure that there is an academics forum somewhere else.

 

[TerryTate]

Despite the opinions of Old Boys from various schools both in the CAS and GPS, based on the current opinion/ viewpoint of CAS Headmaster's it can be assumed that no school will want to move from their current association. The fact that the CAS now has 2 rounds of competition in both the summer and winter season (thus shunning the competition between GPS and CAS schools) is evidence enough that these Associated Schools have 'gotten over' the idea that they may be viewed as the "secondary" competition and have looked to strengthen their own Association independent from the GPS.

I think what has to be realised here is there won't be change because a.) GPS Schools will not want to see a change in tradition, b.) CAS Schools (specifically the current powers-that-be) have gotten over an inferiority complex that riddles some of the CAS old boys and have looked to strengthen their own competition in its own right.

The motivation by the initial post by TRugby was essentially an argument that competitive Rugby schools in the CAS (Knox, Barker, etc.) would able to find formidable opponents in the GPS if they joined the competition.
The "dream" of having the most competitive Schoolboy Rugby teams play each other every year in a definitive competition is ideal, but in practice it is unlilkely. Current and former students alike enjoy speculating on the idea of a "Best Team in the State" for that specific year based on who the GPS and CAS premiers were and then comparing various results and trying to get a gauge on who would qualify as the best team.

The only way to resolve this sort of problem would be something along the lines of a Challenge/ Bowl Game (like you see in American College Football). Ideally you would want a 4-school knockout tournament consisting of:
1. Waratah Shield Champions (CHS Representative)
2. GPS Premiers
3. CAS Premiers
4. ISA Premiers

The draw woud be randomly selected (i.e. ISA Champion vs CAS Champion, GPS Champion vs Waratah Shield Champion = Winner 1 vs Winner 2 to determine the State Champion) Allowing this champion to play Queensland's respective champion to become National Champion (qualifying for Sanix World Youth Tournament)

Of course... the outcome of this mini-tournament would provide closure and excitement in the eyes of the fans. However I suspect GPS/ CAS schools will feel as though they have nothing to prove as their premiership is (and probably rightly so) the be all and the end all of their season. Hence, you would require commercial/ media backing to publicize it to generate a sense of importance around the event and legitimise it.

 

[qwerty51]

Finding a time-frame would be difficult. The rugby season ends straight right on HSC trials

 

[baldingwingforward]

Finding a time-frame would be difficult. The rugby season ends straight right on HSC trials

Incorrect - a lot of schools do their trials right in the middle of the season! A tough ask for the guys playing 1st XV to study all week and attend training.

"based on the current opinion/ viewpoint of CAS Headmaster's it can be assumed that no school will want to move from their current association."

TT - you might want to ask the Knox headmaster about the above... I have it on very good authority that the Knox headmaster approached the GPS heads about Knox 1st and 2nd XVs taking the place of Sydney High in the 1st and 2nd XV GPS comp. They did this behind all the other CAS schools backs, and were planning on playing their 3rds as their 1st XV in the CAS comp. Doesn't say much for what Knox think of the other CAS schools... As you can imagine the other CAS heads weren't best pleased. There was talk of Knox being barred from the CAS competition!

 

[Hugh Jarse]

snip....

Of course... the outcome of this mini-tournament would provide closure and excitement in the eyes of the fans. However I suspect GPS/ CAS schools will feel as though they have nothing to prove as their premiership is (and probably rightly so) the be all and the end all of their season. Hence, you would require commercial/ media backing to publicize it to generate a sense of importance around the event and legitimise it.

Not only would the schools have nothing to prove by playing after their respective competitions have finished, they have a lot to lose if they start to be beaten regularly by other schoolboy competitions.

There has been vigourous debate here and on other fora about the how to best establish the best schoolboy team. I have my thoughts which are similar to yours, however we need to remember:

a. These are schoolboys we are talking about.
b. These same school boys have very full plates sporting and academic wise, particularly if they are also involved in outside club/colts/NTS/or representative teams. Many are also moonlighting in club and representative mungoball activities.
c. The rate of change in the world suggests that bragging rights about how good your school 1st XV was (whether you were a part of it or not) isn't worth much more than a knob of goat shit 20 years on.

IMHO, as enticing a prospect that it may be, it will never happen because there are too many entrenched and vested interests involved.

Pity really.

 

[TerryTate]

TT - you might want to ask the Knox headmaster about the above... I have it on very good authority that the Knox headmaster approached the GPS heads about Knox 1st and 2nd XVs taking the place of Sydney High in the 1st and 2nd XV GPS comp.

Well if the refurbishment of their oval and that scoreboard are any indication I wouldn't completely right off a rumour like that considering the emphasis that is being placed in that department.

HJ:
"a. These are schoolboys we are talking about.
b. These same school boys have very full plates sporting and academic wise, particularly if they are also involved in outside club/colts/NTS/or representative teams. Many are also moonlighting in club and representative mungoball activities."


I agree that these are schoolboys we are talking about, however what is a well established fact is that the Private School system is the main provider of future Super 14/ Wallaby players (maybe someone with a statistic of current players and their schools background can give us the exact figure) but it's a fact we all well and truely know. Consequently, with the advent of professionalism in our game it would come as no surprise that a more professional attitude would filter down into the running of these specific school programs.

To be honest, and this is my own opinion, unless you are a stand out like Rob Horne was for CHS, the success rate of Governtment School players progressing in the game is outweighed by the Private Schoolboys (I am aware there are definately exceptions). There are more Private School representative sides that are given more of an opportunity for representative honours at Schoolboy level thus giving them more exposure to District Clubs for recruitment. It is the well-established stronghold of Rugby player recruitment in Australia and the emphasis that gets placed on it will increase as we all look for players to replace the current flock in S14 teams, etc.

 

[T.Rugby]

Incorrect - a lot of schools do their trials right in the middle of the season! A tough ask for the guys playing 1st XV to study all week and attend training.

"based on the current opinion/ viewpoint of CAS Headmaster's it can be assumed that no school will want to move from their current association."

TT - you might want to ask the Knox headmaster about the above... I have it on very good authority that the Knox headmaster approached the GPS heads about Knox 1st and 2nd XVs taking the place of Sydney High in the 1st and 2nd XV GPS comp. They did this behind all the other CAS schools backs, and were planning on playing their 3rds as their 1st XV in the CAS comp. Doesn't say much for what Knox think of the other CAS schools... As you can imagine the other CAS heads weren't best pleased. There was talk of Knox being barred from the CAS competition!

baldingwingforward -where did you hear this?

 

[T.Rugby]

T Rugby, close but no cigar.
You know deep down that Knox falls short of what is needed to be GPS material.
Like it or not, the reality is that The GPS Schools get a competitive advantage in the marketplace by virtue of their association with the GPS brand.They are not going to dilute the brand. Knox will never be a GPS School.

haha the arrogant attitude that prevents improvement in schoolboy rugby competition. no reason why it wouldnt be included in the gps other than "you know...it falls short of what is needed"

 

[I like to watch]

Sorry T, I'm just having fun. I knew an old Knox boy would never let that one thru to the keeper.

But I am serious about the Rugby comp. GPS have nothing to gain by expanding their competition.
If they have nothing to gain, then they have no reason to consider any change.

 

[barbarian]

The GPS would have a fair bit to gain from having Knox in the rugby comp. It would extend their season, as there is a prevailing attitude within the GPS that their comp is too short with only 6 games. It would increase the quality of the comp, obviously. Knox have a great oval and fantastic facilities, so all OK there. Its not too far to travel.

I have also heard bwf's rumour. But I heard nothing is coming of it. Both sides were interested though.

 

[T.Rugby]

Sorry T, I'm just having fun. I knew an old Knox boy would never let that one thru to the keeper.

But I am serious about the Rugby comp. GPS have nothing to gain by expanding their competition.
If they have nothing to gain, then they have no reason to consider any change.

all good man, i agree with barbarian though. i think that expanding the gps for rugby would actually do the gps better...you could think of it like when the european 5 nations expand to 6 nations to include Italy... it brought about better competition and pushed each country to perform better....whilst in that certain situation helped to develop italy as a rugby nation (good for long term competition!).

 

[RugbyFuture]

sounds like it would screw the CAS though...

 

[Elfster]

I think it would be great for the schools Rugby season to be increased and the competition for all schools to be more inclusive. Though I can't see that happening, timing issues to start with and also various school organizations not wishing to have vested interests diminished.

Also I don't know whether Knox would enjoy being a smaller fish in a big pool, or enjoy the biggest in a smaller pool. And it can be argued that Knox is not the Rugby powerhouse people think it is....its CAS record would show that. I think the best thing would be to keep the various comps as is, but try to have sides play more with different schools outside their respective competitions.

Also I heard that the Knox oval redevelopment may have been partially driven by OH&S issues. As for their scoreboard probably just a re-action to the hideous stuff they previously had.

 

[T.Rugby]

sounds like it would screw the CAS though...

well you are true, taking away a higher level of competition can be bad for other schools development (as they dont have a chance to test themselves against higher opposition...similar situation to the pacific islanders not getting a chance to test themselves against top-tier nations) i suppose i was selfishly thinking of knox only.

However it can be good as it can bring about fairer competition for the CAS rather than same teams sitting at the bottom of the tables each year... for example hypothetically if you put sydney boys high or st patricks (which would be at a similar level to some of the CAS schools in their rugby programs) it would give a chance for Cranbrook or St Aloysious to build confidence in their rugby programs? I hope that makes sense and doesnt sound unfair? also it would prevent half the open teams playing other schools because the opposition cant field enough teams..