NSW AAGPS Rugby 2013

[George Smith]

I suspect on the basis of several years of cricket scores between GPS III and AICES, wiser heads have prevailed realising that a scoreline of 50+ to nil does nothing to help the NSW Schools RU selectors, nor does it help challenge or develop the boys in the GPS III or AICES teams.

Huge, I disagree on the ref to schools selectors.

It would be nice to see the III's get more than one game though, and perhaps this may be addressed next year.

It was a shame the GPS IIIs game was cancelled. Although these games in the past have been "cricket scores" (as you say) they also allow talent to be confirmed when the GPS selectors were too preoccupied on their own schools' representation or just plain naive. A recent example is Angus Pulver in the IIIs last year, played well against AICES only to be "dropped" for second game (ie played 1/2 a game) and then made the Combined States team at Aust U18s Champs and then Aust Schoolboys and now a year later played this morning in the Aust U20s WC.

 

[George Smith]

What constitutes a successful Sporting program?
[extract from attached article from David Kirk, ex RWC NZ Capt and Chairman of trustees at SGS)

There are three elements to consider in assessing a successful school sport.

1. Participation (& retention)
2. Improvement
3. Results

Kirk goes on to articulate how these are measured. Also, at SGS, these measures show that SGS has improved over recent years but during this period Scots and Newington have changed strategy dramatically.

The attached article, I know, will interest many of you.

 

[George Smith]

Why did Scots and Newington embark on their current programs?
[extract from attached article from David Kirk, ex RWC NZ Capt and Chairman of trustees at SGS). Full article attached to post #2023.

"To understand what has happened to GPS rugby we need to go back a few years. I think the turning point was 2006.

A year before, in 2005, Grammar beat High, as we might expect, but that year we also beat Kings 15-5 and drew with Scots, at Bellevue Hill 15-15. We lost to the eventual third place-getters, Shore 14-9, and to Newington by 14 points to 20. We had one large loss, 57-6 to St Josephs (one Kurtley Beale scored 5 tries). That year we finished 6th, a point behind Newington and ahead of Kings.

In 2006 we did even better. We beat High, as expected. We also beat Newington at Stanmore 23-20 and beat Scots at Weigall 26-22. We lost to Kings at Parramatta by just a single point, 24-23. We finished 5th - above Newington, Scots and High. I wonder now if losing to Grammar was perhaps the turning point for Newington and Scots?

If we fast forward to 2012 we can see a great deal has changed. Newington won the premiership unbeaten; Scots finished second, losing only to Newington.

Quite simply, Scots College and Newington College have established 'sports programs' along the lines of the US Colleges model. That is, aggressively recruit and provide scholarships to the best rugby players they can find. Quite often these boys come into the school in Years 10 or 11. Winning a rugby premiership is no doubt a component of the marketing these schools undertake.

This recruitment has got to a point where it has nothing to do with developing rugby-playing talent. Newington College, the GPS Premiers in 2012, had three boys of their team who had been paid to sign contracts to play rugby league when they leave school.

As always occurs in these sorts of circumstances, an arms race in rugby-playing talent has developed."

 

[Hugh Jarse]

George Smith, I think we will have to agree to disagree.

I fail to see how an Selector can make valid comparisons between the relative merits of a #10 in a team that wins by a cricket score who manages to score 3 tries and set up another 4 others and is never put under pressure from a retreating scrum or a defence line that advances rapidly compared to a #10 in a very evenly contested game that ends up in a 5 - 0 scoreline with plenty of pressure applied and limited attacking opportunities.

What to do about ensuring the obvious surplus of rep quality players get some face time in front of the selectors, and in games that are at a challenging level to ensure that the Selectors are given a good opportunity to assess and make valid comparisons?

Some suggestions for more game time for GPS III:
GPS III vs Lloyd McDermott Selection - Many of the better LMcD players are already in School association teams so this may also be a cricket score. Could be costly.

GPS III vs <insert colts club> Colts team. Midweek under lights instead of Colts training. Cheap, easy and doable.

GPS III vs ISA II . ISA II only play 2 trial games (CCC vs CAS II). This would give those boys another chance in front of the Selectors. but ISA II quality is rather variable and could be a smaller cricket score.

Select GPS III earlier and play on one of the earlier trial days against CAS II or other similar level opponent.

Seems a little unfair that GPS I, II and III [only 1 this year], ISA I and II,and Country only get two (2) opportunities to get in front of the Schools selectors.
CHS I and II get 4 trials. AICES (2 this year), CCC and CAS I and II get 3 trials.

 

[Spieber]

Why did Scots and Newington embark on their current programs?
[extract from attached article from David Kirk, ex RWC NZ Capt and Chairman of trustees at SGS). Full article attached to post #2023.

"To understand what has happened to GPS rugby we need to go back a few years. I think the turning point was 2006.

........ I wonder now if losing to Grammar was perhaps the turning point for Newington and Scots?

If we fast forward to 2012 we can see a great deal has changed. Newington won the premiership unbeaten; Scots finished second, losing only to Newington.

Quite simply, Scots College and Newington College have established 'sports programs' along the lines of the US Colleges model. That is, aggressively recruit and provide scholarships to the best rugby players they can find. Quite often these boys come into the school in Years 10 or 11. Winning a rugby premiership is no doubt a component of the marketing these schools undertake.

This recruitment has got to a point where it has nothing to do with developing rugby-playing talent. Newington College, the GPS Premiers in 2012, had three boys of their team who had been paid to sign contracts to play rugby league when they leave school.

As always occurs in these sorts of circumstances, an arms race in rugby-playing talent has developed."

Maybe one for the Scholarship thread.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Trial 1: CHS play AICES/CCC - 2 June
Trial 2: CHS play CAS - 6 June
Trial 3: CHS play ISA/Country - 16 June
Trial 4: CHS play GPS - 21 June

 

[I like to watch]

A recent example is Angus Pulver in the IIIs last year, played well against AICES only to be "dropped" for second game (ie played 1/2 a game) and then made the Combined States team at Aust U18s Champs and then Aust Schoolboys and now a year later played this morning in the Aust U20s WC.

I think that is a terrible example.
He was picked out of Uni colts II's.
The double Bradbury?

 

[Sideline Eye]

Trial 1: CHS play AICES/CCC - 2 June
Trial 2: CHS play CAS - 6 June
Trial 3: CHS play ISA/Country - 16 June
Trial 4: CHS play GPS - 21 June

Hugh, I stand corrected. Clearly I can't count properly - gives a clue as to roughly where on the field my favoured position is...! This inequity in the number of matches seems strange...

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I only posted the summary of the 4 CHS games here because there was another post above my response where someone questioned how I came up with my conclusion that it seemed a little unfair that CHS got 4 trials against GPS 2 trials.

Forget who it was but the original post has been magiced away. Now it makes my post look like bit of a shag on a rock.

 

[Sideline Eye]

I only posted the summary of the 4 CHS games here because there was another post above my response where someone questioned how I came up with my conclusion that it seemed a little unfair that CHS got 4 trials against GPS 2 trials.

Forget who it was but the original post has been magiced away. Now it makes my post look like bit of a shag on a rock.

It was me. I deleted it when I re-counted and realised my error - didn't want to waste good space on the forum with stupid comments . Only saw your response after I had deleted my original...

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I think that is a terrible example.
He was picked out of Uni colts II's.
The double Bradbury?

From GPS III (3rd best half back in GPS) to Aust Schoolboys to JRWC in the space of less than 12 months. Now that is one hell of a "late developer" being picked up late and fast tracked by the talent and development staff.

Having seen him play the odd game, there seems to be some genuine talent there, and not just "connections".

Not sure it is a Bradbury as the opposition didn't suddenly and unexpectedly fail to turn up at the finish line.
Need to think a bit more first, but if it is a Bardbury, isn't it a triple Bradbury?
B1. GPS III to Combined States
B2. Combined States to Schoolboys
B3. Uni Colts II's to JRWC

 

[gpsoldboy]

What constitutes a successful Sporting program?
[extract from attached article from David Kirk, ex RWC NZ Capt and Chairman of trustees at SGS)

There are three elements to consider in assessing a successful school sport.

1. Participation (& retention)
2. Improvement
3. Results

Kirk goes on to articulate how these are measured. Also, at SGS, these measures show that SGS has improved over recent years but during this period Scots and Newington have changed strategy dramatically.

The attached article, I know, will interest many of you.

I note that this is from the June 2013 edition of their "Foundations" publication. No doubt some very quotable material that will get picked up by the SMH!

 

[gpsoldboy]

From GPS III (3rd best half back in GPS) to Aust Schoolboys to JRWC in the space of less than 12 months. Now that is one hell of a "late developer" being picked up late and fast tracked by the talent and development staff.

Having seen him play the odd game, there seems to be some genuine talent there, and not just "connections".

Not sure it is a Bradbury as the opposition didn't suddenly and unexpectedly fail to turn up at the finish line.
Need to think a bit more first, but if it is a Bardbury, isn't it a triple Bradbury?
B1. GPS III to Combined States
B2. Combined States to Schoolboys
B3. Uni Colts II's to JRWC

Ah....some further info that the SMH can pick up on!

 

[wreckless]

It was me. I deleted it when I re-counted and realised my error - didn't want to waste good space on the forum with stupid comments . Only saw your response after I had deleted my original.

What The ......! That's enough of that sort of talk Mr Eye! If everyone deleted their stupid comments we'd be way back to page 70 something!!!!

 

[gpsoldboy]

could anyone please link me where i can find the GPS table ? and after round 2 do we think newington is beatable? if so what teams do we reckon that could do that

Dare I say Scots are most capapble of doing this....it will be a cracker of a game at Newington on 27th July!!

 

[maxdacat]

Huge, I disagree on the ref to schools selectors.



It was a shame the GPS IIIs game was cancelled. Although these games in the past have been "cricket scores" (as you say) they also allow talent to be confirmed when the GPS selectors were too preoccupied on their own schools' representation or just plain naive. A recent example is Angus Pulver in the IIIs last year, played well against AICES only to be "dropped" for second game (ie played 1/2 a game) and then made the Combined States team at Aust U18s Champs and then Aust Schoolboys and now a year later played this morning in the Aust U20s WC.

Thanks for the article. I have been used to Grammar being smashed on the rugby field since i was member of their "social" 4th's in 1990. We were beaten and beaten well by the Joey's 12th XV.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

[extract from attached article from David Kirk, ex RWC NZ Capt and Chairman of trustees at SGS). Full article attached to post #2023.

/....snip.../..

As always occurs in these sorts of circumstances, an arms race in rugby-playing talent has developed."

Arms race is an interesting term and while hardly invented by Gaggerlanders, it is not in all that commonly used.

I note that the term "arms race" was first used on the Scholarship thread by smokinjoe on Jun 10 2011 and has been used on no less than 35 occasions since.

This gets old Hugh thinking that either Captain Kirk, who incidentally is one of only 3 Australians to have held the William Webb Ellis trophy aloft as the Rugby World Cup Winning Captain, or one of his close advisors is a fellow Gaggerlander.

 

[George Smith]

George Smith, I think we will have to agree to disagree.

I fail to see how an Selector can make valid comparisons between the relative merits of a #10 in a team that wins by a cricket score who manages to score 3 tries and set up another 4 others and is never put under pressure from a retreating scrum or a defence line that advances rapidly compared to a #10 in a very evenly contested game that ends up in a 5 - 0 scoreline with plenty of pressure applied and limited attacking opportunities.

What to do about ensuring the obvious surplus of rep quality players get some face time in front of the selectors, and in games that are at a challenging level to ensure that the Selectors are given a good opportunity to assess and make valid comparisons?

Some suggestions for more game time for GPS III:
GPS III vs Lloyd McDermott Selection - Many of the better LMcD players are already in School association teams so this may also be a cricket score. Could be costly.

GPS III vs <insert colts club> Colts team. Midweek under lights instead of Colts training. Cheap, easy and doable.

GPS III vs ISA II . ISA II only play 2 trial games (CCC vs CAS II). This would give those boys another chance in front of the Selectors. but ISA II quality is rather variable and could be a smaller cricket score.

Select GPS III earlier and play on one of the earlier trial days against CAS II or other similar level opponent.

Seems a little unfair that GPS I, II and III [only 1 this year], ISA I and II,and Country only get two (2) opportunities to get in front of the Schools selectors.
CHS I and II get 4 trials. AICES (2 this year), CCC and CAS I and II get 3 trials.

Yes, it would be ideal to get a decent game where skill is tested under pressure. Your ideas as alternatives are valid but are they really plausible/achieveable given the politics and timing?

 

[George Smith]

From GPS III (3rd best half back in GPS) to Aust Schoolboys to JRWC in the space of less than 12 months. Now that is one hell of a "late developer" being picked up late and fast tracked by the talent and development staff.

Having seen him play the odd game, there seems to be some genuine talent there, and not just "connections".

Not sure it is a Bradbury as the opposition didn't suddenly and unexpectedly fail to turn up at the finish line.
Need to think a bit more first, but if it is a Bardbury, isn't it a triple Bradbury?
B1. GPS III to Combined States
B2. Combined States to Schoolboys
B3. Uni Colts II's to JRWC

The only "Bradbury" was in respect to B3 when Jock Merriman was selected ahead of Pulver for the Aust U20s but then severely dislocated his ankle in last grade game before the team was being assembled. Pulver then got the call up. Merriman plays 1st grade for Syd Uni and last year played 1st grade colts. He also left Shore a year earlier than Pulver.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I reckon a colts match vs GPS III is the only "real" option of those above. AAGPS are unlikely to budge on the timing of the announcement of their 3 rep teams.

That constraint then only leaves a possibly of a Tuesday or Wednesday night game.

AAGPS (and NSW Schools RU) could surprise with their flexibility to move out the Schools RU environment to play a Schools selection match against a Colts team.

IIRC Scots 1st XV played a trial against Manly Colts 3rds this year.