• Welcome to the forums of Green & Gold Rugby.
    We have recently made some changes to the amount of discussions boards on the forum.
    Over the coming months we will continue to make more changes to make the forum more user friendly for all to use.
    Thanks, Admin.

NSW AAGPS 2017

Tip the 2017 AAGPS 1st XV Premiers


  • Total voters
    92
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

Black & White

Vay Wilson (31)
Only 28 boys so far committing to grammar rugby in the opens from what I have heard, so it looks at this stage grammar will only be putting 1 team forward in the opens. So a very difficult year for grammar rugby seems to be the vibe i'm getting, with an appalling year 12 rugby cohort, which has culminated in only 9 year 12s committing to rugby this year at Grammar. The loss of the FullBack of the 1st XV last year, leaving for Riverview at the end of term 3, and another one of their better year 12 players will miss his 2nd year in a row due to illness, has really made it hard for grammar rugby this year.

Look out for the number 7 Chadwick and the 13 Alexander to be the dominant performers of this side. The younger sheldon also returns from an ACL, has been back to cricket so should take his place at 10 which is promising.

Only a handful of players having any 1st XV experience whatsoever, unless the younger years can really step up, which is doubtful from all accounts, it could be a very long season for grammar rugby.


Establishing a Rugby culture within a school is never a straight forward matter.In my experience its the school's leadership that really counts, followed by a supportive teaching staff who are prepared to coach after school.This is again assisted by parental support, number of Rugby Ovals and alternative sports such as soccer.

Our decline in Rugby numbers at the major independent schools, is based on these factors in general and at Grammar the pursuit of academic excellence in particular. However, scholarship( the study version) and sportsmanship can co-exist and in fact should complement each other. As the personal qualities that makes a great sportsman, will largely be the same that develop a quality academic.

Self-discpline,good organisation, attention to detail and a high level to achieve. Also, the family environment cannot be discarded. Parents who are middle class professionals is another vital component. In other words the traditional social background of Rugby Players.

Grammar has these qualities, but leadership at the Headmaster level to promote the game according to some Old Boys ,I know, has been lacking.

Inside Shoulder, as an informed Grammar Old Boy, I wondering if you could give us a perspective, particularly regarding the leadership of Mr A.Mackerras. Who is reputed to have said "Rugby is a repugnant Game". My apologies if I cannot offer you a Chocolate Frog.
 

Garry Owens

Alan Cameron (40)
So NSW Schoolboy Rugby boffins .......

I start by saying that I know very little about the quality of , what would seem , to be the two primary schoolboy competitions ( AAGPS and CAS )

Quality , in the context , of how these two competitions line up against each other. Does one competition run deeper than the other ?

I know each competition have Schools that can lay claim to a rich Rugby history ( some deeper than others ) but.......in the current state of play, if you were to , theoretically , re-shuffle the competitions , who would be the Top 10 in Sydney Schoolboy Rugby ?

1. Opens
2. 16's
3. 15's

Thank you in advance for those who care to indulge me in my quest to get a basic handle on this - I look forward to your opinions
 

SonnyDillWilliams

Nev Cottrell (35)
that is a real shame about Sydney Grammar ... here is a school with some of the best playing fields, and with a proud history in various sports

is it just rugby where participation is evaporating?!

as I appreciate that the ARU has a real battle in terms, of "hearts and minds" ... and Super rugby possibly looking like reduced Aussie team (March 9 meeting)

however at the school level, it seems strict adherence to an entrance exam entry process is leading a "less than balanced education" ... at least that's how it looks from the outside

St Aloyious at Kirribilli ... unless I am mistaken , is doing a better job , of maintaining a student body, that is academically driven, but also "balanced" ... and that doesn't mean it has to be rugby

anyway there is a new headmaster, so there is real opportunity there ... otherwise it will be a real shame for Sydney Grammar
 

The Honey Badger

Jim Lenehan (48)
So NSW Schoolboy Rugby boffins ...

I start by saying that I know very little about the quality of , what would seem , to be the two primary schoolboy competitions ( AAGPS and CAS )

Quality , in the context , of how these two competitions line up against each other. Does one competition run deeper than the other ?

I know each competition have Schools that can lay claim to a rich Rugby history ( some deeper than others ) but...in the current state of play, if you were to , theoretically , re-shuffle the competitions , who would be the Top 10 in Sydney Schoolboy Rugby ?

1. Opens
2. 16's
3. 15's

Thank you in advance for those who care to indulge me in my quest to get a basic handle on this - I look forward to your opinions


Schools in some sort of rough order of Participation (total teams fielded)


St Josephs
Riverview
Shore
Knox
Scots
waverly
kings
Cranbrook
Newington
Trinity
Barker
Aloys
 

SonnyDillWilliams

Nev Cottrell (35)
Schools in some sort of rough order of Participation (total teams fielded)


St Josephs
Riverview

Aloys

Honeybadger , you raise a good point ... tiers can refer to levels of participation, and performance

to me St Augustines seems to have always a very strong A team, but not sure of number of teams

so in terms of tiering, how many teams are fielded is relevant, and obvously fluctuates from year to year ... except of course at Joeys :mad:
 

Garry Owens

Alan Cameron (40)
So year on year ..would it be reasonable to say that AAGPS is always the stronger competition ?

The emphasis being on strength / quality rather than everyone "having a run""
 

The Honey Badger

Jim Lenehan (48)
So year on year ..would it be reasonable to say that AAGPS is always the stronger competition ?

The emphasis being on strength / quality rather than everyone "having a run""

Correct. Very Reasonable, I would say.

There is an Oxymoron in this, GPS have a code of conduct disallowing Sporting Scholarships and CAS have no such code and are free to offer Sporting Scholarships.

However GPS schools attract and enroll more Rugby talent than CAS,
 

The Honey Badger

Jim Lenehan (48)
Honeybadger , you raise a good point . tiers can refer to levels of participation, and performance

to me St Augustines seems to have always a very strong A team, but not sure of number of teams

so in terms of tiering, how many teams are fielded is relevant, and obvously fluctuates from year to year . except of course at Joeys :mad:

Yep, participation and Strength at 1st/ A level are totally unrelated.

The ability of some schools to attract talent into an otherwise small rugby program will always distort the relativity between schools
 

Black & White

Vay Wilson (31)
Schools in some sort of rough order of Participation (total teams fielded)


St Josephs
Riverview
Shore
Knox
Scots
waverly
kings
Cranbrook
Newington
Trinity
Barker
Aloys


Honey Badger, a few alterations I have to make, is that Newington should be well ahead of Cranbrook. Or on par with Waverly and even Kings. I would place Cranbrook only ahead of Aloys. Newington,Kings and St.Augustine's all have
quality A Teams, but do not have the depth of Joeys, View and Scots.
 

The Honey Badger

Jim Lenehan (48)
Honey Badger, a few alterations I have to make, is that Newington should be well ahead of Cranbrook. Or on par with Waverly and even Kings. I would place Cranbrook only ahead of Aloys.
You could be right, it wasn't done very scientifically.

But the lower end of the table are schools with maybe 2 teams each age group, maybe 3 open teams
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Yep, participation and Strength at 1st/ A level are totally unrelated.

The ability of some schools to attract talent into an otherwise small rugby program will always distort the relativity between schools

Although some schools seem to attact talent from elsewhere on a reasonably regular basis, but it is rarely commented upon and always explained away.

(see post #726;))
 

RuckOver12

Frank Row (1)
While I agree with a number of your points, it is my experience the school have a dedicated and talented cohort of rugby players with heart, a very supportive parent group, and extremely passionate head of rugby, together with those Masters who coach the sport. It has always been a mystery to me how this does not translate to success. I'm not sure I agree the issue filters from the top, unless of course like A H Mackerras, that headmaster is openly opposed to the sport. SGS two most successful eras in rugby were under AB Weigall who sought to rebuild the school and..."build character through sporting activities", and SPT Houldsworth who was credited with establishing the school's impressive music programme, and for whom rugby did not appear to be a priority. SGS rugby remains one of life's mysteries...
 

Dave Johnson

Frank Row (1)
While I agree with a number of your points, it is my experience the school have a dedicated and talented cohort of rugby players with heart, a very supportive parent group, and extremely passionate head of rugby, together with those Masters who coach the sport. It has always been a mystery to me how this does not translate to success. I'm not sure I agree the issue filters from the top, unless of course like A H Mackerras, that headmaster is openly opposed to the sport. SGS two most successful eras in rugby were under AB Weigall who sought to rebuild the school and."build character through sporting activities", and SPT Houldsworth who was credited with establishing the school's impressive music programme, and for whom rugby did not appear to be a priority. SGS rugby remains one of life's mysteries.

------------
Well said!
 

Huly

Chris McKivat (8)
I can only imagine the situation at High would be worse than that,


High is likely to field 3 opens teams this year. High sometimes fields a 3rd XV composed of players who are entirely new to rugby - a great way for some of the senior students to get a taste of the sport before they leave school.

The 1st XV last year was very young and almost all of them will return (some will even be around for the 2018 season) - although key losses have occurred in crucial positions.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Establishing a Rugby culture within a school is never a straight forward matter.In my experience its the school's leadership that really counts, followed by a supportive teaching staff who are prepared to coach after school.This is again assisted by parental support, number of Rugby Ovals and alternative sports such as soccer.

Our decline in Rugby numbers at the major independent schools, is based on these factors in general and at Grammar the pursuit of academic excellence in particular. However, scholarship( the study version) and sportsmanship can co-exist and in fact should complement each other. As the personal qualities that makes a great sportsman, will largely be the same that develop a quality academic.

Self-discpline,good organisation, attention to detail and a high level to achieve. Also, the family environment cannot be discarded. Parents who are middle class professionals is another vital component. In other words the traditional social background of Rugby Players.

Grammar has these qualities, but leadership at the Headmaster level to promote the game according to some Old Boys ,I know, has been lacking.

Inside Shoulder, as an informed Grammar Old Boy, I wondering if you could give us a perspective, particularly regarding the leadership of Mr A.Mackerras. Who is reputed to have said "Rugby is a repugnant Game". My apologies if I cannot offer you a Chocolate Frog.
The demographic at grammar might still be middle class professionals but who makes a middle class professional these days is markedly different from the old days.
Those attracted to grammar now are often the first generation of middle class professional in their family. They have a son or sons who probably won't get into a selective public high school and so they go for the academically next best thing. They do so because they think the most important thing you can give a child is an education.
They are very often disinterested in sport and perceive soccer to be the least unpalatable winter sport. Soccer is also the real football to many of them. I understand that they have to turn kids away from soccer (and I think basket ball) and believe they have introduced rules for some younger boys that they may not transfer into soccer from rugby unless they fullfil incompetence criteria. Then they have kids doing cross country so they can play aerial ping pong on sundays.
Have a look at the grammar boatshed numbers - terrible: demands too much time and is poorly run. Look at the 1sts cricket results too - well credentialed professional coach with high level background in the sport. These kids have never done anything athletic in many cases when they arrive in year 7: they think the beep test is a reality TV show.
Mackerras was a turd (though I liked him): he disliked sport of all sorts and only watched rugby for the cream buns afterwards. He hated rowing too. Despite preaching tolerance of others and supporting the concept of choice because HE didn't like sport he actively sabotaged it. Even in 1978 when they won 1st and 2nd VIII he was undermining them by trying to limit how much training was done.
However, once he succeeded in making the school academically highly selective he broke the old boy model on which rugby, in particular seems to be built: since very few fathers of students went to a rugby school or played rugby they have no particular interest in the fortunes of rugby at the school.
in short, there is no rugby culture among the parents.
Funnily enough, Lachlan Fear concentrates on emulating the rugby culture by organising tours and I have heard from soccer parents how much a son would love to play rugby because it is much more fun culturally, but the mums think it's to dangerous.
Also there are only 180 kids in a year (all of whom sit the HSC): 'View have that many kids trialling for rugby in year 7!!
New headmaster next term - old boy from 94 - coached 2nds cricket at his school in the UK so maybe he likes sport and knows a little about it.
PS - he never gave me a chocolate frog and he never invited me to a retreat at Kiama as he did with some of my age peers (I was not their intellectual peer)
 

Black & White

Vay Wilson (31)
The demographic at grammar might still be middle class professionals but who makes a middle class professional these days is markedly different from the old days.
Those attracted to grammar now are often the first generation of middle class professional in their family. They have a son or sons who probably won't get into a selective public high school and so they go for the academically next best thing. They do so because they think the most important thing you can give a child is an education.
They are very often disinterested in sport and perceive soccer to be the least unpalatable winter sport. Soccer is also the real football to many of them. I understand that they have to turn kids away from soccer (and I think basket ball) and believe they have introduced rules for some younger boys that they may not transfer into soccer from rugby unless they fullfil incompetence criteria. Then they have kids doing cross country so they can play aerial ping pong on sundays.
Have a look at the grammar boatshed numbers - terrible: demands too much time and is poorly run. Look at the 1sts cricket results too. These kids have never done anything athletic in many cases.
Mackerras was a turd (though I liked him): he disliked sport of all sorts and only watched rugby for the cream buns afterwards. He hated rowing too. Despite preaching tolerance of others and supporting the concept of choice because HE didn't like sport he actively sabotaged it.
However, once he succeeded in making the school academically highly selective he broke the old boy model on which rugby, in particular seems to be built: since very few fathers of students went to a rugby school they have no particular interest in the fortunes of rugby at the school.
in short, there is no rugby culture among the parents.
Funnily enough, Lachlan Fear concentrates on emulating the rugby culture by organising tours and I have heard from soccer parents how much a son would love to play rugby because it is much more fun culturally, but the mums think it's to dangerous.
Also there are only 180 kids in a year (all of whom sit the HSC): 'View have that many kids trialling for rugby in year 7!!
New headmaster next term - old boy from 94 - coached 2nds cricket at his school in the UK so maybe he likes sport and knows a little about it.
PS - he never gave me a chocolate frog and he never invited me to a retreat at Kiama as he did with some of my age peers (I was not their intellectual peer)
Thank you,Inside Shoulder, for your extensive response to the culture at Sydney Grammar and why Rugby is no longer flourishing. These comments should stand as a warning to all rugby/sports playing schools, that some educators are very hostile to our style of education and the role rugby plays within a school in terms of character development. Lets hope the new Headmaster's at Grammar and Kings can see the value of Rugby as a source of personal development and support the code.
P.S IS you must have be a well behaved student as Mackerras I believe gave then out when caned a boy. Or the 1st XV beat Joeys.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top