November Internationals (excluding Wallabies & NZ)

[Highlander35]

What are people's thoughts on Borthwick's England?

He's been points away from beating NZ, France and SA within the past year. I think he's got a decent team, Marcus Smith is a freak, his backrow and locks are great. It seems like he's close to clicking.

But he's already had some 25 odd games in charge, he's not a rookie coach, on a massive losing streak, change should be happening.

While he's certainly competent, he's not managed to bring whatever it was that made him a very good club/provincial coach into the international arena.

Unless the RFU are sniffing a different batch of coke than I am, he needs to beat Japan, and probably beat them well, and that gets him through to the 6 Nations.

At that point I think anything other than a top 2 finish (or 4 win series, if FRA/IRE/ENG all trade off fixtures) probably sees him turfed. They need to kill the wood over my mob at Twickers and knock off one of Ireland and France, and if he doesn't there will be no sense of progression.

One of his biggest flaws for me is I don't think he's as good at managing his reserves as some really really coaches are: whether that's a he just doesn't have a feel for the flow, or he doesn't have confidence in them i don't know, but it feels quite evident.

As an aside, I would hope that Townsend is being looked at from the same lens. He's brought a level of... "consistency" to us that I've been happy with, alongside a playstyle and embrace of all possible eligible players in a way that Cotter didn't and was never going to, but it's important to figure out if this playing group is capable of more than knocking off England each year, or if this really is the peak of what it's capable of.

 

[Wilson]

What are people's thoughts on Borthwick's England?

He's been points away from beating NZ, France and SA within the past year. I think he's got a decent team, Marcus Smith is a freak, his backrow and locks are great. It seems like he's close to clicking.

But he's already had some 25 odd games in charge, he's not a rookie coach, on a massive losing streak, change should be happening.

They're building something, which has really only started in earnest after a bit of a post world cup reset, and also dealing with the retirement of a few key players. If I was an English fan (gross) I'd want them to persist and weather this tough period. As an Australian, I love that the knives are coming out and they're descending into shambles.

That said, I don't think Borthwick is perfect, he's a first time international coach and is making plenty of the classic mistakes. He could really use some more experience amongst his assistants to help him out. I'm also not entirely sure they know what to do with Smith and scarily think they could be getting even more out of him. I think this six nations is going to be make or break for Borthwick, but Eddie does have a (very slim) chance to end his English career this weekend.

Also, with Gatland looking like a case of when not if the English may get itchy feet and want to get to the market before the Welsh have snapped up a candidate they want

 

[Dctarget]

but Eddie does have a (very slim) chance to end his English career this weekend.

If Eddie gets within two scores surely it's lights out for Steve.

 

[Wilson]

If Eddie gets within two scores surely it's lights out for Steve.

Pretty much, but I expect England will put them to the sword.

Beyond that it might depend on the blazers in charge thoughts on the next coach, specifically their nationality - Eddie was the first foreign coach they hired and there seemed to be a never again vibe when he left. If they want to maintain that it's probably in their interests to give Borthwick longer. The main English options are probably Richard Cockerill, Rob Baxter, or a return to Stuart Lancaster, none of which inspire a lot of confidence. Lancaster could actually be a good shout, I just don't think they'll be able to bring themselves to go back to him.

Alternatively if they're happy to put there pride aside and go foreign again it makes sense to go to market quickly. In that case I have a feeling we might be seeing Michael Cheika's name come up in a lot more articles over the next couple of months.

The other one is Mike Catt - he's probably the best credentialed English coach going around (aside from maybe Lancaster). I don't think he wants to be a head coach given he's never done anything but assistant roles, but I could see them being very keen to pull him in as a senior assistant and help steady the ship in any new setup. Helps offset any flak they get from signing a foreigner to the top job too.

Edit: maybe Phil Dowson as well in terms of English coaches, but he feels like a step or two behind the others in terms of experience

 

[Dctarget]

Pretty much, but I expect England will put them to the sword.

Beyond that it might depend on the blazers in charge thoughts on the next coach, specifically their nationality - Eddie was the first foreign coach they hired and there seemed to be a never again vibe when he left. If they want to maintain that it's probably in their interests to give Borthwick longer. The main English options are probably Richard Cockerill, Rob Baxter, or a return to Stuart Lancaster, none of which inspire a lot of confidence. Lancaster could actually be a good shout, I just don't think they'll be able to bring themselves to go back to him.

Alternatively if they're happy to put there pride aside and go foreign again it makes sense to go to market quickly. In that case I have a feeling we might be seeing Michael Cheika's name come up in a lot more articles over the next couple of months.

The other one is Mike Catt - he's probably the best credentialed English coach going around (aside from maybe Lancaster). I don't think he wants to be a head coach given he's never done anything but assistant roles, but I could see them being very keen to pull him in as a senior assistant and help steady the ship in any new setup. Helps offset any flak they get from signing a foreigner to the top job too.

Edit: maybe Phil Dowson as well in terms of English coaches, but he feels like a step or two behind the others in terms of experience

Surely Andy Farrell is the next in line after '27.

 

[noscrumnolife]

What are people's thoughts on Borthwick's England?

He's been points away from beating NZ, France and SA within the past year. I think he's got a decent team, Marcus Smith is a freak, his backrow and locks are great. It seems like he's close to clicking.

But he's already had some 25 odd games in charge, he's not a rookie coach, on a massive losing streak, change should be happening.

I think there players just aren't as good as they make out in all honesty. I listen to Ben Youngs podcast (which incidentally isn't too bad apart from hilariously arrogant early crow - much better than Andy Goode/Jim Hamilton e.g., especially when Dan Coles who is sound is on) or English media and they suggest they have world class cattle across the park.

Personally, I don't see it. Front row stocks are pretty average (although there are some good young players I've seen in u20), Itoje is great but his partners are a bit hit and miss (Chessum probably the best but he's injured) and the backrowers are good - but blow a bit hot and cold. Don't massively rate any their halfbacks, centres or back three players who aren't Feyi-Waboso. Smith is phenomenal though and has really found his feet as a world class international 10.

Their bench is in all honesty not good enough - guys like Isiekwe and Dombrandt don't belong at Test level.

I also think that whilst Smith has been incredible, they do miss Farrell a lot. He was the centre of that team for almost a decade, and you can't take that out the team and not expect to feel it.

 

[Wilson]

Surely Andy Farrell is the next in line after '27.

I imagine that's what they want internally, but it's not much help if they decide to change coach now, he's very much not available. If they're really set on locking him up after '27 (and have some indication he wants it too), then that probably increases Cheika's chance for a short term job. That said it also probably means Borthwick is a bit safer than he otherwise appears - no point going early if the guy you really want is still a few years away from being available.

 

[Thalium]

What are people's thoughts on Borthwick's England?

He's been points away from beating NZ, France and SA within the past year. I think he's got a decent team, Marcus Smith is a freak, his backrow and locks are great. It seems like he's close to clicking.

But he's already had some 25 odd games in charge, he's not a rookie coach, on a massive losing streak, change should be happening.

I just dont think Borthwick is up to the Challenge and is not a head coach. the shenanigans with subbing or moving Marcus Smith is crazy. But I expect them to bounce just enough for 6 nations for him to get a few more months out of the Job


I honestly wouldnt be surprised to see Michael Cheika to get a tap on the shoulder from either England or Wales. However it wouldnt be this year it would be late 2025 or 2026

 

[molman]

Ok, I'm normally cheering the Irish on, but I really wanted Argentina to win that game last night. If there is such a thing as deserving to win a game, they deserved it.

The Irish really get away with a bit around the park, especially at the ruck and Argentina just showed so much more effort and intent.

I'd also love some better camera angles in these games on things, like that knock on call at the end, give us a clear view. I can see it bobble forward, but I can't see if there is a hand of anything on it or if it just bobbles a bit as the Iish press down on the ruck. A real shame of an end because I don't think it was necessarily the result of good Irish defence and my gut tells me that the Argentines were a good chance of going over there.

I'm kind of disappointed that the TMO doesn't do a better job on some things like that kick to touch was clearly touched by Hansen and the poor Argentine is pleading with the referee.

So here is the knock on at the end. See, what would have been so hard with them showing this camera angle.

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[molman]

They're building something, which has really only started in earnest after a bit of a post world cup reset, and also dealing with the retirement of a few key players. If I was an English fan (gross) I'd want them to persist and weather this tough period. As an Australian, I love that the knives are coming out and they're descending into shambles.

That said, I don't think Borthwick is perfect, he's a first time international coach and is making plenty of the classic mistakes. He could really use some more experience amongst his assistants to help him out. I'm also not entirely sure they know what to do with Smith and scarily think they could be getting even more out of him. I think this six nations is going to be make or break for Borthwick, but Eddie does have a (very slim) chance to end his English career this weekend.

Also, with Gatland looking like a case of when not if the English may get itchy feet and want to get to the market before the Welsh have snapped up a candidate they want

Do you think they are building something? What do you see that's improved game on game? Because to my eyes they seem a little all over the place in what is or isn't improving. It's almost like they find new ways to loose.

There is obviously some cohesion forming with time, but I'm honestly a little unclear on what they're working towards. The backline moves seem to break down after their openning stanza when it feels like they've used up their training plays, their defence has been rather ragged speaking to system issues and whilst I think Marcus is a standout the flipside of his style is I don't think he's necessarily good at feeding those outside him such that I don't think he is using some of the assets in the team very well.

My gut says that the whole backroom staff turnover has left things a mess and Borthwick is out of his depth to carry it all. If they firm up the coaching group I think they can do better.

I disagree with @noscrumnolife, in that I do think they have enough raw talent. They wouldn't be in with a chance to win all these game if they didn't and when they're on song, unusally in the openning stanza they look pretty classy. Where I do agree with people is that their bench doesn't seem to have the quality or even argulably the right players. He also seems really unsure of how to manage it with his decisions around Marcus seeming to indicate that he's bowing to public opionion rather than perhaps making to calls he sees as best.

 

[Wilson]

Do you think they are building something? What do you see that's improved game on game? Because to my eyes they seem a little all over the place in what is or isn't improving. It's almost like they find new ways to loose.

There is obviously some cohesion forming with time, but I'm honestly a little unclear on what they're working towards. The backline moves seem to break down after their openning stanza when it feels like they've used up their training plays, their defence has been rather ragged speaking to system issues and whilst I think Marcus is a standout the flipside of his style is I don't think he's necessarily good at feeding those outside him such that I don't think he is using some of the assets in the team very well.

My gut says that the whole backroom staff turnover has left things a mess and Borthwick is out of his depth to carry it all. If they firm up the coaching group I think they can do better.

I disagree with @noscrumnolife, in that I do think they have enough raw talent. They wouldn't be in with a chance to win all these game if they didn't and when they're on song, unusally in the openning stanza they look pretty classy. Where I do agree with people is that their bench doesn't seem to have the quality or even argulably the right players. He also seems really unsure of how to manage it with his decisions around Marcus seeming to indicate that he's bowing to public opionion rather than perhaps making to calls he sees as best.

Yeah, the departures in the coaching team have definitely hurt them, but I think they're building a defensive system that can be a real weapon once they learn some nuance and bed down the systems. Currently they're falling for rope a dope tactics that are wearing their rush out, but it's also harder to vary a game plan you're still putting in place. Whether or not they can get there is another question but the closeness of their losses speaks to a side that is not necessarily that far off. They're desperate for some experienced assistants though.

I don't mean this as a staunch defence of Borthwick, I think the jury is very much still out on him as an international coach. I do however think they have very little to gain in changing now, unless they have a standout candidate to get in. And we've all seen how even that can go horribly wrong...

 

[Wilson]

Looks like Gatland might get the 6 nations to turn things around:

Clause in WRU contract could end Warren Gatland's Wales tenure

A break clause in Warren Gatland’s contract with the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) - which becomes active following the 2025 Six Nations...

www.rugbypass.com

Seems most likely that he's gone at the end of it though, with the WRU probably starting the search for a new coach in the background.

Maybe the upcoming break clause will be enough to negotiate an early departure or engineer a transition period though. Sounds like they'll make that call this week:

The WRU is under pressure to act decisively and it is expected a decision will be made this week by Welsh Rugby Union executive director of rugby Nigel Walker on whether or not to sack Gatland immediately or persist with the current set-up until the Six Nations.

 

[LeCheese]

Looks like Gatland might get the 6 nations to turn things around:

Clause in WRU contract could end Warren Gatland's Wales tenure

A break clause in Warren Gatland’s contract with the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) - which becomes active following the 2025 Six Nations...

www.rugbypass.com

Seems most likely that he's gone at the end of it though, with the WRU probably starting the search for a new coach in the background.

Maybe the upcoming break clause will be enough to negotiate an early departure or engineer a transition period though. Sounds like they'll make that call this week:

Understandable, but wrong decision imo. It's so clear that Gatland's got all-but-a-toe out the door, is demotivated (and demotivating), at a loss for what to do, and has probably lost the change room.

I'm sure his heart is still in it, and will do his best to attempt to right the ship while forced to remain at the helm, but Wales needs a motivator and a firebrand right now. How long's Cheika signed to Leicester for?

 

[Wilson]

Understandable, but wrong decision imo. It's so clear that Gatland's got all-but-a-toe out the door, is demotivated (and demotivating), at a loss for what to do, and has probably lost the change room.

I'm sure his heart is still in it, and will do his best to attempt to right the ship while forced to remain at the helm, but Wales needs a motivator and a firebrand right now. How long's Cheika signed to Leicester for?

It probably doesn't matter how long for, there's usually an out for a tier 1 international coaching job (or the cost of getting them out is not insurmountable). It's really just about not breaking the bank getting rid of Gatland, which is why they may be leaning towards giving him the 6 nations.

 

[cyclopath]

So here is the knock on at the end. See, what would have been so hard with them showing this camera angle.

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Hmm, looks a bit like an Irish hand in the mix there. Maybe Argentina can feel aggrieved.
I wonder, if they got a penalty, would they have gone for a tap or just kicked the 3 for a draw?

 

[molman]

Yeah, the departures in the coaching team have definitely hurt them, but I think they're building a defensive system that can be a real weapon once they learn some nuance and bed down the systems. Currently they're falling for rope a dope tactics that are wearing their rush out, but it's also harder to vary a game plan you're still putting in place. Whether or not they can get there is another question but the closeness of their losses speaks to a side that is not necessarily that far off. They're desperate for some experienced assistants though.

I don't mean this as a staunch defence of Borthwick, I think the jury is very much still out on him as an international coach. I do however think they have very little to gain in changing now, unless they have a standout candidate to get in. And we've all seen how even that can go horribly wrong...

Do you?

I have question marks over their defensive system and like all defensive systems there are trade offs. Looking at it from the outside you had Felix Jones, who whilst being well regarded after his time in the South African setup and endorsed by Joe Schmidt back in the day is still a relatively newish coach with I think maybe 7 years under his belt, who I believed worked with South Africa as their attack coach (can't recall his role at Munster/Ireland) and played in the back three as a player, who was trying to implement a defensive system that he'd lifted from other outfits. Was he the right individual for that specific task, who knows. Since he's left, you now have Joe el-Abd who has been coaching in second division France plugging the hole, with him apparently doing some of it remotely as he is still contracted to his old club. Hardly ideal.

The players look both congnitively overloaded as they're trying to make decisions within the system as to what they should be doing (as the system seems too much of a varient from their club based systems), this is coupled with the system looking like it causes a high degree of fatigue with the rather evident drop off we are seeing in Englands game after the 60min mark. This just just adds to the cognitive challenge and all this is resulting in a number of players making some really poor defensive reads that you just don't usually see from them in other contexts like the club game. Once players start to loose faith in the system the coaches will have an even greater challenge in getting it humming again as this approach is so reliant on all players buying in and pressing the line in sync.

As for Borthwick, I wouldn't drop him at this stage, but I'm not convinced by him at this point. I think he's getting close to 30 games with not a particularly impressive win ratio. His media rhetoric about experience in terms of caps, young team, rebuilding, changing our approach, etc.. etc.. is all starting to sound a little tired at this point. The exodus of coaches doesn't speak well to the environment as you don't have people bailing on their contracts if they're enjoying their workplace, so I'm not sure what really happened there.

All in all, I think England is better than how they're playing at the moment, but then I've often felt that and their win/loss ratios arent great so I'm not sure many coaches have got the best out of them. It's probably why Eddies first run looked so impressive before things went all pear shaped on him.

 

[Bullrush]

Jeeeeeez the ref was lenient on Scotland, check these out:

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In the first 'tackle', the 9 and the 10 should have both been looked at and, at a minimum, penalised. First the head contct from 9 and then no arm tackle from 10.

Unbelievable.

 

[cyclopath]

This lack of consistency will be an ongoing issue and I'm not sure how they will sort it. We see it within games (Nic White for example) and from game to game, ref to ref. Some ARs seem to look at every impact, others not so much.
The principle of reducing head contact is great, the process will be a clusterfuck for some time.

 

[Wilson]

This lack of consistency will be an ongoing issue and I'm not sure how they will sort it. We see it within games (Nic White for example) and from game to game, ref to ref. Some ARs seem to look at every impact, others not so much.
The principle of reducing head contact is great, the process will be a clusterfuck for some time.

The referral system and 20 minute red card should help here overtime, by taking more time with the decisions and reducing the difference between no sanction and the largest one, but I think the main way they can improve is in the off field process - lean more on suspension than in game punishment, explore systems for 'loading' from yellow card offences, reduce the discounts (e.g. tackle school should be mandatory for a pro in their first year and never grant a discount) and improve the communication around reviews and decisions (actually publish analysis about why one tackle is ok and another is not, and in a timely fashion).

 

[molman]

The referral system and 20 minute red card should help here overtime, by taking more time with the decisions and reducing the difference between no sanction and the largest one, but I think the main way they can improve is in the off field process - lean more on suspension than in game punishment, explore systems for 'loading' from yellow card offences, reduce the discounts (e.g. tackle school should be mandatory for a pro in their first year and never grant a discount) and improve the communication around reviews and decisions (actually publish analysis about why one tackle is ok and another is not, and in a timely fashion).

I honestly don't see why some of these can't be dealt with after the game. You miss obvious ones during game time, not ideal, but then they come to light after, just have a clear protocol for dealing with them then. I really don't like the process of the other team having to refer it.

All that said, those two examples are just so poor from the TMO and again really does tie into the narrative of how different teams seemingly get a different rub of the green.