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Northern Hemisphere Rugby Season 14/15

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the plastic paddy

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
All sorts of shenanigans going on. The English Premier league have voted to stop investigating alleged breaches of the salary cap because of concerns it will put off supporters and sponsors. Further to this, they didn't want to undermine PRL's reputation as they enter negotiations for England player release etc. So far, only the Times is running with the story, behind pay wall so can't link, but they are reporting that senior pros are unhappy with the situation. It could get very amusing and wind up involving lawyers.
 
the plastic paddy

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
A friendly soul managed to get past the pay wall

Owen Slot Chief Rugby Correspondent
Last updated at 12:01AM, April 30 2015
Leading professional rugby players in England reacted with incredulity yesterday to the news that the investigation into a possible breach of the salary cap by Saracens had been officially suspended at the highest level. It was said that breaking the salary cap was little different to taking performance-enhancing drugs.
The Times reported yesterday that the Aviva Premiership clubs had voted in February to suspend the Saracens investigation until the summer. It emerged yesterday that one reason the clubs had voted for the suspension was because Saracens had cautioned that they may test the legality of the salary-cap system in the European Court of Justice.
Saracens maintain that they have not been in breach of the cap rules anyway. If they had been found in breach, they might have received a points deduction that could have prevented them from qualifying for this season’s play-offs or the European Champions Cup next season.
Damian Hopley, the chief executive of the Rugby Players’ Association (RPA), said yesterday that feedback from his members had been heavy, that there was a sense of “huge frustration” and that “the news has been met with incredulity”.
“Everyone buys into the principle of the salary cap, we recognise its worth and the purpose it is serving for English rugby,” Hopley said. “So there is a sense that people might be cheating. We’ve had comments from leading players in the Premiership that breaking the salary cap is akin to being on the field with someone who is taking performance-enhancing supplements. It’s just not fair: either you play by the rules or you don’t.
“There is a growing sense of frustration amongst the players. We talk about the values of rugby, well there needs to be mutual respect here about what we are all buying into.
“We want transparency and accountability across everything that we do. As the players are held accountable every weekend in front of the viewers and the fans in the grounds, we want to make sure that is the same across the industry.”
The RPA’s endorsement of the salary-cap system is soon to be recognised formally in a new collective agreement that the players are signing with the Premiership and the Rugby Football Union.
At the same time, however, the clubs are in the process of an in-depth review of the salary cap. Senior administrators at some of the clubs insist that they required a suspension of the Saracens’ investigation while they reviewed the governance and structure of the salary cap. And they did not want their ability to restructure to be threatened by the legal challenge that Saracens had discussed bringing to the European court.
Next season, the salary cap is likely to have changed significantly. Breaches of the cap next season may not be punished next season with the same heavy sentences that are threatened now, although no club have been hit with a points deduction for breaking the cap.
One proposal for next season is that instead of a points deduction for a salary-cap breach, there will be a “luxury tax”. In the United States, Major League Baseball has a luxury tax whereby those teams whose combined player salaries rise above the predetermined guideline level have to pay a tax. That tax could then be redistributed among the other clubs.
On one point, the clubs have a very solid case for change. At present, those clubs who provide players for the England team lose many of their best players for a third of the domestic season and receive little compensation in return.
Although they lose their best players, the regulations give them no dispensation to spend extra — to lift the cap — to replace those players.
In France, where the clubs also operate a salary-cap system, clubs are given a credit against the cap if they provide players for the national team. For having a player in the national side, a club can receive a credit to spend up to €100,000 (about £72,000) above the present €10 million cap.
The Premiership clubs expect to have a similar system in place for next season.
 
Antony

Antony

Alex Ross (28)
I'm hearing rumours that Joe Schmidt is leaving Ireland on compassionate grounds. Hopefully he and his family are okay. Can anyone confirm the departure?

Edit: in case anyone reads this down the line and freaks out - apparently it's not true. Teaches me to believe water cooler chat.
 
JSRF10

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
Thanks for the minor heart attack!!

The PRL are a joke zero credibility I fear what state English rugby will be in in ten years if the RFU let the lunatics run the asylum
 
Lee Grant

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
I put up a blog of the ERCC final yesterday.

http://goo.gl/855wG1

A few punters here derided the standard of the competition and scoffed at the selection of someone like Ali Williams as man-of-the match, in "Discussion".

It thought the rugby was of a high standard.
.
 
mxyzptlk

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
Lee Grant said:
I put up a blog of the ERCC final yesterday.

http://goo.gl/855wG1

A few punters here derided the standard of the competition and scoffed at the selection of someone like Ali Williams as man-of-the match, in "Discussion".

It thought the rugby was of a high standard.
.
Click to expand...
I don't want to get into the comments thread in your review, Lee -- those are people/names I don't even recognize, and the comments seemed short-sighted. But one of the big differences I've noticed between Super Rugby and the European club sides this season is defense, which seems to be more of a concern in the northern hemisphere. That means you won't always get the all-singing, all-dancing, all-scoring rugby Aussie fans demand. Super Rugby teams, particularly centers and wingers, are finding gaps, space, and holes that would often be shut down in most NH league games. (But that might also speak to how the breakdown and offsides line are being refereed.)

Besides, it's just a bit ludicrous to compare a European Cup final -- or any final -- to week-in week-out club competition as a measure of quality. Since the Heineken Champions Cup is more of a step between league and Test rugby, you'd expect to see more attacking plays being shut down before they get rolling. And finals aren't about flash, they're about winning. Bonus points mean nothing at that point.

But I don't think comparing Super Rugby to the Champions Cup is the right comparison, since the Champions Cup is almost knock-out rugby from the start. For a more fair comparison, you have to take Super Rugby against the northern hemisphere league competitions, which broadens the pool considerably.

And on average, I think it's hard to compare 15 Super Rugby teams to the 38 across the three northern competitions -- you're going to get more extremes in quality, especially since they play more games in the northern hemisphere. The 15 Super Rugby sides play 18 rounds before the playoffs, and that's it. The Premiership and PRO12 play 22 rounds before the playoffs, while the TOP 14 play almost a third more with 26 rounds (gah!), and the teams that qualify for the Champions or Challenge Cup play another 5 rounds on top of that.

So in one season, an English or PRO12 team that qualifies for a European competition play one-and-a-half Super Rugby seasons. Teams like Clermont and Toulon, who made the European finals, are playing well more than that, and if either team makes the TOP 14 finals, then they're close to playing twice as many games as they do in Super Rugby -- 37 games in a season.

With that many more teams and that many more games, you're just going to get a broader range in quality across their respective campaigns. Maybe the NH could take a lesson from that. On the other hand, maybe once Super Rugby expands enough they'll introduce a Champions Cup-type element across the conferences (but I hope not, since that would likely bite into player fitness for Test rugby).
 
Lee Grant

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Wow that's a great post mate.

How about you recast that as a blog? I can add photos and all that stuff.

There would have have to be a title to it and a theme - not this is in an "answer to people putting down NH rugby"" blah blah but something like "a comparison of NH and SH rugby" or "What Aussie rugby players can expect in they play in Europe" - that will probably grab a few Aussie readers - so give Giteau and Mitchell a mention.

You can write under you Username or your real name.

You may not be interested but if you are send me a "Conversation".

Also anybody else that uses this thread is welcome to submit copy.

Incidentally Super Rugby teams play only 16 pool rounds: they have a bye for two rounds by turn.

.
 
Antony

Antony

Alex Ross (28)
I was one of those casting aspersions. Apologies if it somewhat derailed the thread - I was just surprised to see Ali Williams still getting raps.

This is also a very good point.

mxyzptlk said:
And on average, I think it's hard to compare 15 Super Rugby teams to the 38 across the three northern competitions
Click to expand...
 
the plastic paddy

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
The tackle is reffed very differently in the two hemispheres, with tacklers allowed much more license to challenge for the ball, with minimal release, in the NH. This allows the defensive line much more time to organise itself and, generally, it is half a metre, at least, further forward/ offside than in Super rugby. I would also suggest that the two starting packs yesterday would have been considerably bigger than anything in Super rugby including the Saffers; not a great thing, I would add, btw, but the French teams are absolutely massive.
 
Hawko

Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
the plastic paddy said:
The tackle is reffed very differently in the two hemispheres, with tacklers allowed much more license to challenge for the ball, with minimal release, in the NH. This allows the defensive line much more time to organise itself and, generally, it is half a metre, at least, further forward/ offside than in Super rugby. I would also suggest that the two starting packs yesterday would have been considerably bigger than anything in Super rugby including the Saffers; not a great thing, I would add, btw, but the French teams are absolutely massive.
Click to expand...


Some thoughts on your excellent post:
  1. Given how poorly the offside line is policed in Super Rugby it is pretty depressing to think that the NH referees are going to be used to allowing even more offside play for the WC. It won't make for good television and there'll be a plethora of kicking if that's the case. Already most NZ teams choose to kick to an aerial contest (the Hurricanes less so) and the SA teams know no other way. If I wanted to watch people chasing kicks I'd watch Gaelic football or AFL.
  2. Super Rugby packs are usually about 900kg each and lately the Saffers have had very similar pack weights to the Aussies and Kiwis. I think this is because the SH teams think that in order to be able to handle the aerobic fitness requirements of rugby that 900+/-20 kg is the sweet spot. Any heavier and you can't run far enough and fast enough to be competitive. With the concentration on set-piece play and kicking in the NH you can pick heavier packs because the aerobic requirements are not as high.
  3. What is evening up the aerobic requirements at the moment is the 1-3 minute rests being allowed for players to recover at the scrum. The amount of playing time actually wasted in setting scrums, both north and south, is an abomination that only gives unfit players time to recover from anaerobic to aerobic fitness states.
  4. In the backs also you see this. I think that if Bastareaud was playing in a Super Rugby team like the Hurricanes, Chiefs or Waratahs he would quickly be benched, despite his obvious skills, because he could not maintain the required pace in attack and defence over the 80 minutes. Conversely all three SH test teams have been dished up in recent times in the scrum at one time or another, because NH scrummagers appear to be stronger.
How the games are refereed for the WC will have a huge impact on what the games look like. In the NH this won't be a problem because rugby is very popular, as it is in SA. But in Australia and NZ where crowds have been declining because of the impact of competition from other football codes, a RWC that is all attritional scrums, aerial bombardment and rolling mauls has the potential to be very damaging. The 2007 RWC was a very poor advertisement for the game overall and I hope 2015 won't go down that path.
 
Lee Grant

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
the plastic paddy said:
I would also suggest that the two starting packs yesterday would have been considerably bigger than anything in Super rugby including the Saffers
Click to expand...

I doubt if the size of the packs in the ERCC Final would scare too many down here. Quality is another matter.

Sometimes I jot down the weights of the packs of the Aussie teams.

Last weekend The Brumbies pack weighed 929 kgs - and their opponents, the Waratahs weighed 927 kgs - that's a massive pair of scrums. The weekend before the Rebels weighed 912 kgs in Sydney.

The SAffers don't have the biggest scrums these days though the heaviest Stormers scrum is big and the same for the Bulls. The Chiefs and Blues have big packs; but on average the three big Aussie packs are bigger as a trio, than the biggest trio in NZ and the RSA.

Let's not discuss the quality in North and South - but I seen Clermont dished up a few times this season; not that scrummaging has been their main attribute in recent years..
 
BabyBlueElephant

BabyBlueElephant

Darby Loudon (17)
Antony said:
I'm hearing rumours that Joe Schmidt is leaving Ireland on compassionate grounds. Hopefully he and his family are okay. Can anyone confirm the departure?

Edit: in case anyone reads this down the line and freaks out - apparently it's not true. Teaches me to believe water cooler chat.
Click to expand...


I've heard just the opposite, JS and his family have had excellent care for his son with the medical teams in Ireland having been incremental in looking after the poor lad. They had to go abroad for additional help however, but nothing that would suggest a relocation rather than a treatment choice. I think the IRFU are putting together a healthy sum of money for his services till the next RWC, which is currently in advanced stages I believe. Guess the truth is probably somewhere in between the rumours however.

Gutted Toulon have won again. Clermont blew that game, horrible decision making throughout their backs till Rougerie came on, Parra aside. Had that been a QF I expect Clermont would've been good for a 5-10 point win. Blah they are perhaps the worst chokers in any professional league in rugby union right now.
 
the plastic paddy

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
Hawko said:
Some thoughts on your excellent post:
  1. Given how poorly the offside line is policed in Super Rugby it is pretty depressing to think that the NH referees are going to be used to allowing even more offside play for the WC. It won't make for good television and there'll be a plethora of kicking if that's the case. Already most NZ teams choose to kick to an aerial contest (the Hurricanes less so) and the SA teams know no other way. If I wanted to watch people chasing kicks I'd watch Gaelic football or AFL.
  2. Super Rugby packs are usually about 900kg each and lately the Saffers have had very similar pack weights to the Aussies and Kiwis. I think this is because the SH teams think that in order to be able to handle the aerobic fitness requirements of rugby that 900+/-20 kg is the sweet spot. Any heavier and you can't run far enough and fast enough to be competitive. With the concentration on set-piece play and kicking in the NH you can pick heavier packs because the aerobic requirements are not as high.
  3. What is evening up the aerobic requirements at the moment is the 1-3 minute rests being allowed for players to recover at the scrum. The amount of playing time actually wasted in setting scrums, both north and south, is an abomination that only gives unfit players time to recover from anaerobic to aerobic fitness states.
  4. In the backs also you see this. I think that if Bastareaud was playing in a Super Rugby team like the Hurricanes, Chiefs or Waratahs he would quickly be benched, despite his obvious skills, because he could not maintain the required pace in attack and defence over the 80 minutes. Conversely all three SH test teams have been dished up in recent times in the scrum at one time or another, because NH scrummagers appear to be stronger.
How the games are refereed for the WC will have a huge impact on what the games look like. In the NH this won't be a problem because rugby is very popular, as it is in SA. But in Australia and NZ where crowds have been declining because of the impact of competition from other football codes, a RWC that is all attritional scrums, aerial bombardment and rolling mauls has the potential to be very damaging. The 2007 RWC was a very poor advertisement for the game overall and I hope 2015 won't go down that path.
Click to expand...
I really do feel that the NH interpretation of the breakdown especially the one espoused by Wayne Barnes is a large part of the reason for so much aerial stuff and indeed mauling. Joe Schmidt clearly sees that firing the ball into the stratosphere is one of the best ways to retain possession but that has been against NH sides. Ireland have not played like that against Aus, SA and NZ when the ball stayed in hand a lot more.
 
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