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Northern Hemishpere Rugby 2013

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Bardon

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Thought it would be a good idea to have a thread for general discussion of Northern Hemisphere rugby each year rather than having unrelated discussions in thread for specific tournaments like the 6Ns and HEC threads.

To kick it off here's the Ireland training squad announced from next week's camp.

S Archer (Munster), R Best (Ulster), I Boss (Leinster), T Bowe (Ulster), J Coughlan (Munster), S Cronin (Leinster), G D'Arcy (Leinster), K Earls (Munster), L Fitzgerald (Leinster), D Fitzpatrick (Ulster), C Healy (Leinster), J Heaslip (Leinster), I Henderson (Ulster), C Henry (Ulster), R Henshaw (Connacht), P Jackson (Ulster), S Jennings (Leinster), R Kearney (Leinster), D Kearney (Leinster), D Kilcoyne (Munster), I Madigan (Leinster), L Marshall (Ulster), M McCarthy (Leinster), F McFadden (Leinster), J McGrath (Leinster), K McLaughlin (Leinster), N Morris (Leicester), C Murray (Munster), S O'Brien (Leinster), Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster), P O'Connell (Munster), B O'Driscoll (Leinster), P O'Mahony (Munster), E Reddin (Leinster), M Ross (Leinster), D Ryan (Munster), J Sexton (Racing Metro 92), M Sherry (Garryowen), R Strauss (Leinster), D Toner (Leinster), D Tuohy (Ulster), S Zebo (Munster).
 
Hugh Jarse

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
My questions for NH readers.

Is there any concern that the number of SH journeymen or former SH international players reduces the positions available for your players to gain top level experience to prepare them for International Duties?

Same question in relation to the number of SH coaches. We have had "issues" with a foreigner coaching our National Team. Many believe that he was trying to implement a style of rugby that was countrary to what we believed Australian Rugby was about. Right horse on the wrong course.

IRE, WAL, SCO and ITA have all had foreign coaches, some have had more than one.
 
Bardon

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
On your 2 questions I'll answer them separately as I think they have very different affects:

Foreign players

Here in Ireland I don't see a problem as the number of foreign players are limited at the top 3 provinces, Ulster, Munster and Leinster. Those 3 teams are predominantly Irish and those foreigners brought in are either of a very high calibre or are squad players used for injury cover or rotation when nationally contracted players can't be picked due to the player management program.

Connacht are exempt from the restrictions and I think this is right too. Previously Connacht was labelled a development province. Which in theory meant they would give opportunities to young players who aren't quite ready for the other 3 provinces.

In reality it was a dumping ground for younger players who'd washed out at the other 3 provinces or players who were seen as too old to deliver at the highest level. As a consequence Connacht weren't developing players of international calibre.

The main problem with Connacht back then was that it's very hard for players to develop when the team is getting their collective asses handed to them every week. Bringing in a bunch of foreign players raised the standard and competitiveness of the team. Irish players who make the starting side have to be of higher quality than in the past as they are competing against the foreign players.

The fact that they are competing at a higher level means the players gain more experience. Couple that with learning from experienced foreign players and you have an environment where Irish players can now develop at Connacht. I'd rather have half a team of Irish players experiencing the thrill of beating the English champions in the HEC than a full team of Irish players shifting a 50-60 point defeat.

Overtime the quality of Irish players coming through at Connacht will increase and someday they'll come under the same rules as the rest. but until we have enough Irish players to fill the massive squads required in the NH AND remain competitive I fully agree with the number of foreigners in our game.

There's no doubt in my mind that the quality of Irish players coming through at Leinster was increased due to the foreigners in the squad. We had Contepomi at his brilliant best and Nacewa (to my mind the best player never to play in a RWC) and it took players of the quality of Sexton and Kearney to make the breakthrough.

But in the past those guys might have been starting before they were ready thus stunting their development. Add to the that the fact that in training those young guys are learning from these guys and it's positives all round.

Where foreigners have a negative impact though is in England and especially France. With no limit you just end up with too many foreigners and players don't learn as much because often the back up to the foreigner is another foreigner.

This then severely limits the number of national players who gain experience at the highest level and limits the pool the national coach has to pick from.

It's a tight rope and it's very hard to achieve the right balance. But I'm happy with how things are in Ireland on the player front. There are enough foreigners to push the Irish players to do better and to mentor younger players, but not too many as to deny players who are ready a spot in the team.

Foreign Coaches

In terms of foreign coaches my opinion is that if he's the right candidate for the job then why not. The first and foremost responsibility of the national coach is to get the players to produce their best form consistently when they pull on the national jersey.

To this end it's important that players buy into the coaches vision. This is easier for a coach of the same nationality but not impossible for a foreign coach.

Some of it depends on which direction the national team needs to go. Sometimes a team needs to get back to it roots and someone from the same country is ideal in that situation. Other times some new thinking is needed and this best suits a foreign coach. Most of the time it's just the case that there's one outstanding candidate and people aren't too fussed about what country he's from.

In terms of foreign specialist coaches I'm even more for this than head coaches. Most teams have deficiencies in their game due to it not being a traditional strength. So why not recruit a foreign coach from a country where that particular element is an embedded strength and the coach has a proven record.

If it's been a long time since your nation has produced a decent kicker or scrumager or whatever. That points to, not only a deficiency in the skills of the players, but also of the national coaches. Why not bring someone in who can then improve the ability of the current crop of players and at the same time mentor the specialist coaches of the future.

Looking at the club/provincial scene. I also don't have a problem with head coaches being foreigners. Some of Ireland's best coaches have had to go abroad and have been very success.

At some point those guys will return to Ireland better than when they left and will a broader base of experience.

Sport is a strange beast in that we often don't see a benefit from learning from foreigners, at least not to the same extent as business and education does.

The big difference in sport is that a lot of it is about belief so the timing has to be right. Having a blanket policy of either no foreign coaches or only foreign coaches will fall down at some point.

It currently works for the ABs because they have the best players and coaches in the world pushing each other to continually improve. But someday in the future we'll see a foreign coach of the ABs too as what they need just isn't available domestically at that time.
 
JSRF10

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
Bardon said:
Thought it would be a good idea to have a thread for general discussion of Northern Hemisphere rugby each year rather than having unrelated discussions in thread for specific tournaments like the 6Ns and HEC threads.

To kick it off here's the Ireland training squad announced from next week's camp.

S Archer (Munster), R Best (Ulster), I Boss (Leinster), T Bowe (Ulster), J Coughlan (Munster), S Cronin (Leinster), G D'Arcy (Leinster), K Earls (Munster), L Fitzgerald (Leinster), D Fitzpatrick (Ulster), C Healy (Leinster), J Heaslip (Leinster), I Henderson (Ulster), C Henry (Ulster), R Henshaw (Connacht), P Jackson (Ulster), S Jennings (Leinster), R Kearney (Leinster), D Kearney (Leinster), D Kilcoyne (Munster), I Madigan (Leinster), L Marshall (Ulster), M McCarthy (Leinster), F McFadden (Leinster), J McGrath (Leinster), K McLaughlin (Leinster), N Morris (Leicester), C Murray (Munster), S O'Brien (Leinster), Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster), P O'Connell (Munster), B O'Driscoll (Leinster), P O'Mahony (Munster), E Reddin (Leinster), M Ross (Leinster), D Ryan (Munster), J Sexton (Racing Metro 92), M Sherry (Garryowen), R Strauss (Leinster), D Toner (Leinster), D Tuohy (Ulster), S Zebo (Munster).
Click to expand...

Links underwhelming start with the Wobs should temper any expectations of a quick fix Irish fans had with Joe Schmidts appointment. Joe is one of the best coaches in the world and I think he'll have us flying at the World Cup but I'd take a win over Samoa in November and good performances against Australia and BNZ. I'm expecting 3 home wins in the 6 nations, and 2 away wins from our 4 away games this year (England, France, Argentina x2)

Disappointed that Tommy O'Donnell and Stuart Olding are injured, I had them ear marked to make big break throughs this year. That probably would have demoted DOC and Morris from the squad. Interesting that Schmidt hasn't named a captain yet, I'd wager that POC is the front runner.

Big thing this year for Ireland is their forwards with ball in hand and attacking lineout. If they can get the forwards and the scrummie attacking the 5m either side of the ruck and offloading or securing quick ruck ball the way Leinster have done so successfully and a hooker who can consistantly throw to our guys (one of the 4 should be able to do it!) we'll be a force to be reckoned with.
 
KevinO

KevinO

Geoff Shaw (53)
Interesting squad, few players in there that I hope don't play for Ireland as they would not benefit any World Cup preparations. (BOD, Darcy, DOC need to retire from International after November and go out on there own terms and move aside)

Why no Gilroy?

McFadden surprises me, never been a fan. Glad to see Fitzgerald getting another shot.
 
KevinO

KevinO

Geoff Shaw (53)
JSRF10 said:
I'd take a win over Samoa and Australia in November and good performances against BNZ. I'm expecting 3 home wins in the 6 nations, and 2 away wins from our 4 away games this year (England, France, Argentina x2)
Click to expand...

Fixed, ruining the Wallabies plans of a Grand slam tour and the form they are in I expect a win and nothing less.
 
Bardon

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
So nice of Edward Griffiths (Saracens CEO) to say that Pro12 teams would be welcome to join the new English/French competition.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24151800

The more I hear about this new competition, the more I hate the idea. It's basically turning rugby into soccer where an elite group of clubs get the majority of the revenue and use that to create an unbridgeable (excepting a soccer style billionaire buy-out) gap between the haves and have nots.

The great thing about the HEC is that any given year over 50% of the entrants have a realistic chance of making the knock-out stages and once in the last 8 anything can happen.

The fact that Saracens (to me the most artificial club in top tier rugby) are at the centre of this, while not a surprise, is very worrying. A future model where revenue generation and monetizing are at the centre of our sport is not something I want to see.

Hopefully the Pro12 teams tell him where he can stick his invitation. They'd be crazy to accept something that's basically "come join our competition on our terms, we'll make most of the money but you'll have the privilege of playing against us and filling our stadia."

The English and French teams might be in the big markets for TV but I can't see too many people getting over excited about what is basically an LV Cup with a French accent. The match ups that excite fans are seeing the top teams in Europe go head to head.

Munster are the biggest draw in Europe and could fill most teams regular stadia with their traveling support. Leinster are the most successful team in Europe in recent years and are therefore a big draw.

Most Pro12 teams will attract a higher attendances than a 2nd string French side who are more worried about the Top 14.
 
JSRF10

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
The worst thing is that the British media have become the propaganda mouthpieces for the PRL, and are spouting many out right lies every day. The Rabo teams put 70 proposals, regarding participation, finance etc, in total to the French and English and they stone walled them all. It came to a head for me when Conor O'Shea was lying on RTE saying Harlequins only got E400k for their participation last year. Apparently that was their net profit from their run to the knock out stages, and he compared it with Zebres figure before costs of taking part.

If anything the English clubs need to question why the 6 clubs who aren't qualifying get a slice of the pie. They are splitting 26% of the money 12 ways and the Italians are splitting 5% 2 ways. The money should be more performanced based but then again the English wouldn't like that because us bloody Paddys would be stealing all the money because we don't have to try in the league, our fans are too loyal, we sing too well, we drink too much, we have the nerve to win against English teams :rolleyes:

Right now I hope that the RFU and FFR press the nuclear button and say fine you can have your own competition, but anyone who plays in it will get a lifetime ban from international rugby and we are going to set up our own regional teams with central contracts. I think that would stop this mutiny in its tracks and stop rugby going down a dangerous road. Also 6 centrally contracted regions would probably propel England to the top ranked team in the world IMO.

One thing that the PRL and LNR may have not considered is that they go ahead without IRB they can't call their tournament a rugby union tournament, they can't use a rugby ball, they can't use rugby posts etc etc. The IRB trademarked everything in the game after the Parker shenanigans in 1995. I hope to God they go ahead with their tournament and it ends up with most of the ENglish clubs bankrupt especially Saracens, few things would give me greater pleasure.
 
Hugh Jarse

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Do the equivalent of the Shute Shield and Premier Grade Rugby in the NH pay players, with the professionals limited to Aviva, Top 14, Heineken Cup etc level only?

Do the Test and Heineken Cup level players ever get released to play for their "village" club first grade teams?
 
Zander

Zander

Ron Walden (29)
Hugh, I'm not sure but you'll find in England and France they are two divisions of professionalism.
 
Bardon

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
In Ireland clubs aren't officially supposed to pay players anymore due to huge debts rung up by clubs over the years. There is still some under the table payments but if caught these are severely punished.

Here's a good article that touches on this and also gives some background to the club and school system here in Ireland.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rug...ss-leading-clubs-to-the-wall-1.1345584?page=1

There are enough player numbers not to require Internationals to turn out for club sides. Provincial players are attached to clubs and some may have a run out on their way back from injury.

However we don't have anything similar to the SH where International players go play for their clubs in the ITM, Currie Cup, Shute Shield etc. There are just way too many games in our professional season already.

Instead at each province there tends to be 2 full squads of players. You have the Irish international, top level foreign players and some younger players who are on the fringes of the Ireland team. This players would generally turn out in the HEC and select Pro12 games.

Central contracting means that Irish internationals are limited to the number of games they can play per year and the provinces don't want to overwork their international stars either. So another set of players are needed to fill in.

These are made up of veterans in the final few seasons at the provinces who are good back up for the first squad and a bunch of academy players.

Generally we don't do it like the Top 14 who can play an entirely different 15 2-3 running and still have a tonne of international stars. Instead many Pro12 games will be a mix of the 2 squads. Guys who are on the bench for HEC games will start Pro12 games and there's usually some of the more recognisable names on the team sheet too.

As an example here's the team sheets for Leinster's game away to Scarlets. As you can see from both teams Scarlets are doing something similar.

Scarlets: Gareth Owen; Liam Williams, Scott Williams, Steve Shingler, Kristian Phillips; Rhys Priestland, Gareth Davies; Phil John; Ken Owens; Samson Lee, George Earle, Jo Snyman, Aaron Shingler, Josh Turnbull, 8 Rob McCusker (capt).
Replacements: Adam Warren for Scott. Williams (80), Jordan Williams for Kristian Phillips (63), Rhodri Williams for Gareth Davies (67), Ron Evans for John (53), Emyr Phillips for Owens (70), Jacobie Adriaanse for Lee (70), Jake Ball for Synman (67), Craig Price for Aaron Shingler (70).

Leinster: Dave Kearney; Darragh Fanning, Brendan Macken., Gordon D'Arcy, Luke Fitzgerald; Jimmy Gopperth, Eoin Reddan; Jack McGrath, Sean Cronin, Martin Moore, Tom Denton, Devin Toner, Rhys Ruddock, Shane Jennings (capt), Jordi Murphy.
Replacements: Noel Reid for D'Arcy (77), Darren Hudson for Fitzgerald (44), Isaac Boss for Reddan (67), Jack O'Connell for McGrath (78), Aaron Dundon for Cronin (70), Mike Ross for Moore (36), Mike McCarthy for Denton (41), Dominic Ryan for Jennings (78).

This system allows younger players coming through to get plenty of game time and importantly also play alongside established internationals. So by the time they appear in the HEC squad they're not as raw as players who are making their Super Rugby debut.

This system has been extremely successful for Irish provinces over the last few years and is a major reason why we're so successful in the HEC. The English and French would have you think it's because we can rest players. But the reality is that our system allows us to develop more players (per team) than theirs and is therefore less reliant on bought in talent.
 
Bardon

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
The 2 Italian teams had a great night last night.

Zebre recorded the very first win in their history. They did it in style by beating Cardiff Blues at the Arms Park and scoring 3 tries. The final score was Cardiff 25 Zebre 30. That's some result for a team only formed last season to replace Aironi.

Meanwhile Treviso beat table toppers Munster 29-19 at home. They managed to come back from 12-9 down at half time after Earls scored a try and Munster were awarded a penalty try. Nitoglia scored 2 second half tries and Berquist had a fine night with the boot.

Treviso's win coupled with Glasgow's 12-6 victory over Leinster meant Glasgow replace Munster at the top of the table. It looks like this year is shaping up to be the most competitive Pro12 in a while.
 
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