New Zealand vs Australia - Bledisloe 2, 24th August 2013

[Braveheart81]

Part of it was potentially lack of experience and nerves.

Why did the ball pop out the side? Was it because that Kuridrani tried to lay it back but the ruck was under pressure so the ball got kicked out?

Given that we didn't have any players behind the ball, the situation didn't call for quick ball and making sure we retained it was the order of the day.

Whilst luck was certainly involved that the ball popped out the side nicely for Smith and there was no one in front to stop him, the fact that the ball popped out of the ruck at all was most likely due to a Wallaby error.

One of the things the All Blacks do very well is constantly apply pressure. They get lucky with those little opportunities because they put themselves in the position to capitalize on a mistake very, very often.

There's always someone really putting pressure on our kicker. It just happens that the one time Genia delayed the pass by rotating his body to pass the other direction, Leali'ifano gets charged down and Cruden scores. There are always players lurking at the side of the ruck in case the ball pops out. The one time it does, Ben Smith scoops it up and runs away and scores.

If you look at all the times where the All Blacks put themselves in a position to capitalize on a bit of luck, they're probably not that lucky. They just do it over and over again.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Arnold Palmer or some other golfing luminary is credited with saying "The more I practice the luckier I seem to get."

No reason why this can not apply to Rugby.

The man we all love to hate after RWC 2003 was reported to train 1 hour per day on his kicking in addition to all the other team and individual training sessions he had to attend. Little Jonny Wilko got lucky because he created all his own luck through hard work.

 

[southsider]

Part of it was potentially lack of experience and nerves.

Why did the ball pop out the side? Was it because that Kuridrani tried to lay it back but the ruck was under pressure so the ball got kicked out?

Given that we didn't have any players behind the ball, the situation didn't call for quick ball and making sure we retained it was the order of the day.

Whilst luck was certainly involved that the ball popped out the side nicely for Smith and there was no one in front to stop him, the fact that the ball popped out of the ruck at all was most likely due to a Wallaby error.

jeez don't read too much into it, the ball just got knocked by someones foot, happens over 100 times during a game, just happened that it was out wide and no defence around the ruck had been set up yet and the ball went straight to a opposing player. Yes it was good pressure by the AB's but some things are just dumb luck, that was one of them.

 

[southsider]

Arnold Palmer or some other golfing luminary is credited with saying "The more I practice the luckier I seem to get."

No reason why this can not apply to Rugby.

The man we all love to hate after RWC 2003 was reported to train 1 hour per day on his kicking in addition to all the other team and individual training sessions he had to attend. Little Jonny Wilko got lucky because he created all his own luck through hard work.

that's a skill though, having the ball come out the side of a ruck isn't a skill. You could argue that it was good rucking from the AB's (which it was) but like I said the ball gets caught up in players feet and kicked all the time during a game, shit just happens sometimes without it being anybodys fault

 

[Braveheart81]

that's a skill though, having the ball come out the side of a ruck isn't a skill. You could argue that it was good rucking from the AB's (which it was) but like I said the ball gets caught up in players feet and kicked all the time during a game, shit just happens sometimes without it being anybodys fault

The skill is that the All Blacks player is invariably in the right position to take advantage of the small mistake.

They work really hard and put themselves in the right position time and time again and most of the time that extra work achieves absolutely nothing. It is the 1 in 100 time when the ball does pop out fortuitously and you score a try that then gets called the lucky play.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Hit the nail smack on top dead centre of the head Braveheart81.

 

[Slim 293]

Indeed........ there's no try if the Wobs actually provide support players.........

 

[southsider]

The skill is that the All Blacks player is invariably in the right position to take advantage of the small mistake.

They work really hard and put themselves in the right position time and time again and most of the time that extra work achieves absolutely nothing. It is the 1 in 100 time when the ball does pop out fortuitously and you score a try that then gets called the lucky play.

I haven't watched a replay but im 90% ben smith was the tackler, from memory he tackled tevita, rolled away from the tackle as others started rucking and was just normally getting to his feet to rejoin play when the ball popped out right in front of him, I could hardly call that good positioning (happy to be proven wrong on the details of that one though)

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

If you look at all the times where the All Blacks put themselves in a position to capitalize on a bit of luck, they're probably not that lucky. They just do it over and over again.

It all comes back to what is variously attributed to Thomas Jefferson and Samuel Goldwyn:

"The harder I work, the luckier I get".


The All Blacks, through their relentless application of pressure and attention to detail in the small things, either force mistakes from their opposition or put themselves in those positions to capitalise. I've never seen a rugby team do it better than their current line up. Most of the time they don't play all the footy on the day. They stick to their structures, confident in the knowledge that they will eventually have an opportunity to strike back. They almost always keep the game close enough that in the last 10-15 minutes they will find a way to win and that's why they are the No. 1 team in the world.

 

[Dan54]

Arnold Palmer or some other golfing luminary is credited with saying "The more I practice the luckier I seem to get."

No reason why this can not apply to Rugby.

The man we all love to hate after RWC 2003 was reported to train 1 hour per day on his kicking in addition to all the other team and individual training sessions he had to attend. Little Jonny Wilko got lucky because he created all his own luck through hard work.

HJ down at Sydney for Bledisloe last year I noticed that Dan Carter and Richie McCaw were out warming up etc at least 5 minutes before anyone else from either team, kinda goes along with what you saying!

 

[Viking]

One major problem is the All Blacks Up-and-Under kicking tactic. If they cant kick it out on the full they put up a contestable up-and-under, being the attacking team all they have to do is knock the ball back and there is a pretty high chance they will regather the ball.

The defending team can't knock the ball back because it is usually the winger or fullback receiving the kick and they are the last line of defence. They must take it cleanly. People say up-and-unders are 50-50.... I disagree... an accurate up and under is more like a 70-30 to the attacking team. If they do a poor kick and its a bit short then it becomes a 50-50, if its a bit long then its a turn over.

Falou at fullback should counter this, as he should be able to take the ball cleanly 90% of the time.

We should be doing this tactic ourselves instead of sending the ball downfield straight to their back three. Gifting the All Blacks ball is never a good idea.

 

[Gurz]

Well its just been proved over again that Sydney is definitely a home ground 'disadvantage'.

I have often stated and evidence proves that Suncorp is the only true 'homeground' we have in Australia.

The fact the visitor side's fans are numerically superior just displays what kind of idiocy it is to the play the most important game of the year in Sydney.................

The booing of QC (Quade Cooper) and chants of kiwis was about as much as I could take.... considering we are in fact, playing @home!!!!!!!!!!
The more fence-sitting rugby / league / afl / soccer viewing public in Australia would have turned off way before this....

From a marketing perspective surely WINNING is more important than generating an extra 20,000 ticket sales...>?????????????????

It took about 10 years for the Leagies to work out in SOO that home ground plays massive part in outworking of games... surely the ARU is more intellectually endowed than them...????????

Why then have a 'home game' when 70% of the crowd are kiwis???????
This wouldn't be the case @ suncorp maybe only 60%.......................................................

 

[Brumby Runner]

The skill is that the All Blacks player is invariably in the right position to take advantage of the small mistake.

They work really hard and put themselves in the right position time and time again and most of the time that extra work achieves absolutely nothing. It is the 1 in 100 time when the ball does pop out fortuitously and you score a try that then gets called the lucky play.

Not only working to be in the right position, but always watching the ball. How many times when the ball is sliding around on the ground, or bouncing around in the air off hands and heads etc, is it that the ABs retrieve it rather than the Wallabies? I think there are many occasions especially at ruck time that the Wallabies just don't know where the ball is.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Gurz, I was preparing to give you both barrels about your observations about the Sydney Crowd makeup until your last sentence.

There are a fair few economic migrants in and around the Gold Coast.

One wonders what things will be like in 20 years time when those migrants have raised families and there is a stack of genetic kiwis who are true blue dinki di Aussies playing top level grade and colts footy.

I think those of Maori extraction are called Mozzies. Not sure what the name is for the non-Mozzies.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Some points to consider for the next test.

Why are the Wallabies less than effective at bossing the breakdown when the Brumbies had that facet under control for practically all of the Super season? Is it personnel, or coaching, or game plan? I don't know, but I think we would be more competitive at the breakdown with both Scotts, Sio and Fardy, starting.

Why was Aaron Smith so much better than Will at most aspects of the game and why did he have so much open space in which to work? Was it simply a factor of the Wallabies being beaten at the breakdown, or should there have been much more pressure put on him at set piece? I recall Mowen was outstanding in shutting the Lions' halfbacks down when playing at 6. Should he be moved back to 6 with instructions to shut Smith down? If so, who plays 8? Can Scott Fardy do a Mowen on Smith? When will Kimlin be fit to return? He was outstanding at 8 against the Lions.

Why did Matt Toomus merely shovel the ball wider on almost all occasions rather than sometimes challenging the line or opting for inside balls to winger or FB running different lines? Was it Link's game plan to get the ball wide as quickly as possible thinking the AB forwards would run out of puff? I believe Cummins will offer more options for inside balls than either Izzy or JOC (James O'Connor) did if he plays next week.

Why was JOC (James O'Connor) selected in a position he hasn't played in yonks, and at a time when he really hasn't proved his readiness for test football this year? Is there a better option for this test? Would Jesse Mogg go better at wing than FB? I certainly believe Folau is a better FB than wing, and should start there next week.

 

[Gurz]

Gurz, I was preparing to give you both barrels about your observations about the Sydney Crowd makeup until your last sentence.

There are a fair few economic migrants in and around the Gold Coast.

One wonders what things will be like in 20 years time when those migrants have raised families and there is a stack of genetic kiwis who are true blue dinki di Aussies playing top level grade and colts footy.

I think those of Maori extraction are called Mozzies. Not sure what the name is for the non-Mozzies.

I think it is reflective of how much rugby means to the average aussie v average kiwi... maybe 1:100 in Australia like rugby, let alone be bothered to understand it.... whereas no doubts its the kiwis' national game. As such maybe the kiwi migrants should realise that they'll be playing against themselves more and more - so should stop booing QC (Quade Cooper) as he is likely very reflective of the future of Aussie rugby...

I cant see anything from a long term strategic perspective that shows rugby gaining market share from AFL or League - particularly when the ARU seemingly chooses to make decisions that defy logic by playing games where clearly the ground nullifies any home town favour - In my experience suncorp is the only place in Australia where a home crowd actually favours home team.

Also remember - Kids like winners.... my nephew born and bred in Australia was backing the ABs.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW If you want to feel any better like me.... I hear the Aussies won the men and womens basketball v NZ....

 

[Dam0]

The skill is that the All Blacks player is invariably in the right position to take advantage of the small mistake.

They work really hard and put themselves in the right position time and time again and most of the time that extra work achieves absolutely nothing. It is the 1 in 100 time when the ball does pop out fortuitously and you score a try that then gets called the lucky play.

Yes and if you watch that clip it is a very good example of the AB's focus on the little things. Remember it came from a penalty kick that Barrett was a little ambitious on and failed to find touch. There was an excellent chase from the whole team in a line across the field just for this eventuality, even though it is rare.

For their part, the Wallabies just shovelled the ball along the field and were tackled near to the sideline with both C and A Smith involved in the tackle. By not straightening the play up there was never any chance of a break and every chance of the ball carrier getting isolated. Although Hooper (?) was there in support, there was almost no support from any of the other the forwards to clean up the ruck. Even if the ball had not spurted out, there could easily have been trouble had the AB's attacked the ruck vigorously enough. As it was there was no-one covering a quick turnover and so the try was conceded

If you ask me, it was a combination of good simple work from the AB's and pedestrian play from the Wobs that created the opportunity. Then, good presence of mind and excellent finishing from B Smith did the rest.

 

[Rassie]

you make your own luck

 

[Woodenspoon]

Why did Matt Toomus merely shovel the ball wider on almost all occasions rather than sometimes challenging the line or opting for inside balls to winger or FB running different lines?

Basically beacause this is the way he plays. You can expect from him a perfect defence and a good management of the game plan, but not a sparkling attack play or kicking the ball to gain territory or put pressure to the opponents. Luckily he's young and can still improve.
Besides, he's had his first cap against New Zealand, I cannot blame him for being even more conservative than usual.
I've been watching several Brumbies games this season and he hasn't surely stood out as the best flyhalf in Australia until now. He may be the most reliable though and I guess this is the reason he got the cap.
I'd give either Lealiifano or Foley a try against South Africa or Argentina and wouldn't completely discard Cooper.

 

[mark_s]

But if you have Genia inside him and Lilo outside him (and izzy, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and JOC (James O'Connor) further out) isn't it ok for To'omua to underplay his hand and to be more of a game manager than a game breaker? Or is it not ok?