New Zealand v Australia - Auckland - 23 August 2014

[Brumby Runner]

My take on this is that someone has mentioned the tackle to Poite who has then asked his AR what if anything he saw. Unless the AR said "nah, all good" you'd think Poite would've asked the TMO to review for foul play. That he didn't & that no one from the Wobs camp has mentioned it even in passing suggests to me that it looked worse on TV than it was.

WO you'd have to concede that most high tackles look worse on TV than they actually are, but that doesn't mean they don't or shouldn't get penalised. Like others, I think the incident didn't have a material affect on the outcome, but without doubt it should have been a penalty. If the TJ had a role in avoiding a replay, he should not be officiating.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

WO you'd have to concede that most high tackles look worse on TV than they actually are, but that doesn't mean they don't or shouldn't get penalised. Like others, I think the incident didn't have a material affect on the outcome, but without doubt it should have been a penalty. If the TJ had a role in avoiding a replay, he should not be officiating.

Agree 100%, esp if as I've surmised Berry was the AR. Just to be clear, if Folau was taken high I'd have no problem with the Savea try being disallowed. I'd be fucking furious with the guy responsible (Marshall called it as being Cruden, everyone else seems to think it was Jane), though.

 

[Train Without a Station]

For me, there was a glaring lack of hard men in the pack, no real wingers and as I posted at a different stage, if you're continually looking to cover someone in defence, at some stage you end up one man short.

I don't disagree with you there.

Look the All Blacks stepped up there game in Auckland. But I don't agree that they came out in Sydney not ready for the contest. When challenged they were able to get more out of themselves and it showed.

I also don't think the Wallabies were at all complacent in their attitude. They were going to a ground no Australian team had won a game at for 28 years after all.

But the fact of it is when Richie was binned, the All Blacks took confidence from their ability to control the game a man down and grew a leg. The Wallabies confidence took a massive dive from their inability to exploit that. From there it was going to take some real mental fortitude to come back.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The "tackle" on Folau by Black 14.

 

[Redsman]

definitely no high tackle there....

Jane should have been penalised at the very least.

If Hugh you can also pull the footage from Savea's feet from ON THE LINE on To'omua's kick to the corner tha the same AR? said didn't go out...

annoying mistakes that were key moments in the game.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Yeah but the most annoying mistakes came from Wallabies players.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

The "tackle" on Folau by Black 14.

Oh dear. Penalty & no try for sure.

BTW who's the pigmy in an AB shirt bottom-right?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Not my photo of the high tackle. All credit to @liqourbox who tweeted it during the game.

I don't have the software to post a frame from the game stream that has Savea's feet on the line/over the line/in the field of play. Perhaps one of our more technically skilled young'uns may be able to do the deed for you.

 

[wamberal]

at the hands of the Saffas, from memory it was 70 something to not much..

It was when poor Greg Smith was in his final days as coach, in hindsight he was just not able to function properly because of his brain tumour.

We do not have that kind of excuse this time around. Some injuries, certainly, not our best team on the paddock, definitely. But the Darkness were also affected by injuries.

Our on-field leadership is certainly not as good as it was in those days, incidentally. That is an area that we have to get right, in a hurry. We need to be able to change tactics, and fix problems as they arise. I admire some aspects of Hooper's play, but I am not sure whether he is captaincy material in the longer term. Maybe he is too committed to his own job as a flanker.

 

[Wilson]

WO you'd have to concede that most high tackles look worse on TV than they actually are, but that doesn't mean they don't or shouldn't get penalised. Like others, I think the incident didn't have a material affect on the outcome, but without doubt it should have been a penalty. If the TJ had a role in avoiding a replay, he should not be officiating.

I'm starting to really worry about what's happening with Berry. After two shocking performances for the lions vs blues and lions vs reds he some how wasn't in the group of super rugby refs axed for poor performance, now he's being given the flag for tests. It looks as though someone has decided he is destined to be a future test ref regardless of his actual ability. Good luck to the teams he gets in his first test in charge, at least one of them will need it.

 

[Sully]

Didn't Berry also recommend Simmons yellow card?

Seriously how is this guy anywhere near an international match?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

[ACT Crusader]

Not the ref again fellas. That is sooooo Bledisloe I

The Simmons leg lift in the maul is one of those 50/50 ones I reckon. Retreating maul defence and he's trying to stop it by doing something illegal and potentially dangerous. But the material affect of what he did was neglibile.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I reckon M. Poite had decided to card someone for a dangerous maul collapse without any input from the AR, and all Berry did was confirm the jumper number of the miscreant when asked for an ID by M. Poite.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

I reckon M. Poite had decided to card someone for a dangerous maul collapse without any input from the AR, and all Berry did was confirm the jumper number of the miscreant when asked for an ID by M. Poite.

Disagree, Berry defo told Poite what'd happened.

Just seen Wobs squad for Perth & see AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is listed as Back-Three. WTF is wrong with you people? Surely he's in the top-4 or -5 centres in the world right now esp with JdeV out've sorts. Can't see how he's more effective for you at 14 than 13.

 

[qwerty51]

It has nothing to do with how good he is at 13. It's because we have no wingers.

It's a question of what's better.

Kuridrani @ 13 AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) @ 14 or
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) @ 13 Betham @ 14

I'd go with the first.

 

[Pfitzy]

It has nothing to do with how good he is at 13. It's because we have no wingers.

It's a question of what's better.

Kuridrani @ 13 AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) @ 14 or
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) @ 13 Betham @ 14

I'd go with the first.

More importantly: To'omua @ 12, Kuridrani @ 13 is a combination.

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) suffers from being too fucking excellent at covering the shortcomings.

 

[Pete King]

Our on-field leadership is certainly not as good as it was in those days, incidentally. That is an area that we have to get right, in a hurry. We need to be able to change tactics, and fix problems as they arise. I admire some aspects of Hooper's play, but I am not sure whether he is captaincy material in the longer term. Maybe he is too committed to his own job as a flanker.

I fail to see that there is anyone more capable of leading the side then Hooper, both by example and tactically. There are more pressing issues for the Wallabies then the captain, namely that the other 6 blokes in the pack have a good look at themselves and start following the lead of Hooper and Slipper.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Not the ref again fellas. That is sooooo Bledisloe I

The Simmons leg lift in the maul is one of those 50/50 ones I reckon. Retreating maul defence and he's trying to stop it by doing something illegal and potentially dangerous. But the material affect of what he did was neglibile.

But this time it is cross conference. Different.

 

[terry j]

this is quite appropriate really

 

[FrankLind]

Also posting this here. I think it is fascinating reading. A fern poster attended a managementconference to listen to Grant Fox.

Events have overtaken quite a bit of this material but I’ll present it as if fresh.

I attended a management conference back in May, which was built around the theme of the AB’s. It was actually well done. We had clips of old games as an intro to every presentation, memorabilia, capping ceremonies and a box at Albany for the Blues game against the Sharks. We heard about the red head and the blue head and sweeping the sheds all of which will be familiar to AB fans but the highlight was a presentation by Foxy.

The ongoing discussions over Andy Ellis and why he isn’t in the AB squad has prompted me to post and I will touch on that but there was quite a bit of stuff on players that I don’t feel it is right to put in the public domain.

I asked Foxy’s permission to post my thoughts which he generously agreed to but I don’t want to abuse his trust by touching on stuff that was too personal.

The man himself. Very impressive. Great sense of humour. Very humble. Seemed genuinely happy to be able to shoot the breeze with a bunch of fans. He said he doesn’t get the opportunity to meet in small groups (30 of us) but loves to be able to just “have a yarn” and that’s exactly what he did. There was no speech. Whilst he did most of the talking he encouraged banter and by-play. It was actually quite similar to a discussion on here, except at least one person in the room knew what they were talking about!
Fox started by giving some background on how he came to be involved in the coaching set up.

He had actually made a conscious decision to cease all involvement with rugby until Shag rang. He said that it is much much harder to be a coach than a player and that after his involvement with Akl at this stage in his life he was looking forward to spending some time at the back and with his family.

Until he got Hansen’s call. He said he explained that he told Shag that he just couldn’t handle the roller coaster of emotions any more but that the reply was [try and this in Hansen’s voice as Foxy did a wickedly accurate take off of Shag’s dry laconic tone – “Foxy it’ll just be a bigger roller coaster, but I promise you it’ll be a helluva ride”

That pretty much signed Foxy up. He had actually turned down involvement in the AB’s (twice) when Ted took over from Mitchell in 04. Foxy went into a bit of detail but the guts of it was he twice said No and then at the last minute asked if the position was still available and was told No. He did say a much better guy got the job.

Anyway despite looking forward to kicking back on the Coromandel, Foxy wasn’t going to turn the opportunity down a 3rd time.
He said that once he got inside the AB management structure he was overwhelmed by how slick it was. That without doubt, in his opinion the AB’s are surrounded by the best management people in the world.

Anyways as it was a management conference and because after 3 months I’m starting to forget stuff… I will present the rest in bullet point format

• Shand is the undoubted boss of the AB organisation
• The AB’s are the only part of the NZRU that makes money which means there is a definite conflict between maximizing resources and not impacting on the teams performance or player welfare.
• Money is so tight that it impacts on the number of guys that they will have in a touring party.
• When you get down to Super Rugby level money is even more a factor in determining a teams success – something most fans aren’t aware of. They will say why haven’t the Blues recruited in x position. Its because they can’t afford to. Its not just the salary cap – there are bands within the cap that further constrain a teams selection.
• The AB coaches decide on the game plan that they want to develop at a meeting in January. From then on although there are peaks and troughs he estimates the coaches are working 70 hours week.
• Management of the team is player led. Shag’s philosophy is that if a player is well balanced and happy he will play well and if he’s not he can’t play well. So it is vital that the players know that they are being listened to and that the teams aspirations and their own are aligned.
• AB coaches will meet with each Super franchise once during the season. They will have 1-1 with every player that is in the frame for AB selection and will give them feedback on how the coaches see them going, what they have to work on etc, but Shag also spends an awful lot of time on how they are going off the field. The players all know this and Foxy says it is uncanny. He doesn’t know Hansen does it but he knows everything that is going on in the lives of all his players.
• When it comes to team selection the selection panel have a number of criteria that they look at
• Most important is how well their skill set allows them to carry out the core skill sets of their specific role. So for props, the #1 consideration is how well they scrimmage. Everything else is secondary.
• The second consideration is what other skills they bring to enhance their game. They sit down and look at how well they will play versus a specific opposition and also what ideas the player has about this as well. The coaching panel values simple and straightforward
• Third is budget constraints (see above)
• Fourthly they look at the composition of the bench
• Fifth they look at the balance of the squad. They want every team that they pick to have 3 players for every position in the team all capable of excelling at international level. So the versatility factor.
• They then consider factors like a players injury profile and the need to balance blooding new talent with the importance of experience.
• One thing the media gets totally wrong is the focus on the RWC. The coaches don’t even have half an eye on 2015 – they need to win now. Not in one year, not even in one month. It’s all about the next game.
• This is crucial to the AB ethos. The players and management have all totally bought into the history of the AB’s. The current team are totally motivated by the AB legacy. They are proud of it and care deeply about passing that legacy on. All the fancy marketing campaigns have merely tapped into the reality. For the AB’s it is not about individual glory its about leaving the jersey in a better place than where you picked it up. Its not your jersey. It’s the All Blacks jersey and you are just minding it temporarily. This is where the sweeping th sheds stories originate. Foxy did confirm the story about the Pommy journo who was shocked when he went in to the AB changing room at Twickenham to literally see Carter and McCaw stay behind to sweep the floor and tidy up all the rubbish.
• There is enormous peer pressure within the team to be the best. piston wristed gibbons never make it. They get found out before they get near the team.
• Under Shag the AB’s environment is honest and caring but brutally honest. He talks about feed forward not feed back. Hansen is incredibly positive and its all about improving yourself but he has another saying in the belly not the back. He does not hold back.
• Foxy says it can be incredibly entertaining Hansen goes 1-1 with a player and always asks “Out of 10, how honest do you want me to be?” The players all know what is coming but of course they have to say 10. Hansen then says great you have given me permission and he goes for it. He is always very measured, very even and unemotional, but there is always a massive amount of evidence to support what he has to say. The whole point of the discussion is about getting the player to accept the message and then they work to help the player improve.
• Foxy told a story about a friend of Shags – high profile coach in a different code who was struggling. Shag reckoned he could see where they were going wrong so invited them out to lunch. “out of 10 how honest do you want me to be” They replied “No way I know you – 6” but over the next 3 months they turned their season around by following Hansen's advice.
• The coaches watch a lot of rugby but in todays age they have all the analysis they ever need so when they watch a player they concentrate solely on what they do off the ball.
• As a selection unit there is never any disagreement over the starting 23. Its always the last couple of squad members where it comes down to a 50/50 call. Ultimately if there was a disagreement it would be Hansen’s call but it has never got there. On one occasion it did get close to a stalemate and there was talk of putting it to a vote but Hansen said “bollocks – open another red” and they reviewed the criteria and got to a consensus.
• Foxy reckons Hansen has an amazing ability to rad people. He wont suffer dickheads but he will support his players and work with them to overcome any obstacle on or off the field. They all know this and respect him for it.
• Shag has learnt not to judge too hard. Inevitably when a players form drops the real issues have nothing to do with rugby which the player has never had the chance to think out. Shag leads them to the answer by asking them questions and once they are there he asks OK what do we need to do to fix it. This means the player takes ownership of the issue with Hansen offering support.
• Someone asked if Foxy thinks Hansen’s Police background helps him with his man management and questioning style. Apparently Hansen gives all the credit to his Dad.
• This focus on the mental aspect of the game is what gives the AB’s the edge. Skills wise the AB’s are a little bit better. There strategy is a little different but these don’t make them a better team than the opposition. The difference is mental toughness. Fox credits the AB’s as being “light years” ahead of the opposition in this area. He has never seen Gilbert Enoka with the team but the players speak very highly of his contribution.
• Despite what most teams would consider a great years the AB’s were very unhappy with their 2012. They were inconsistent and this didn’t sit well with them.
• Foxy was asked if the AB’s become complacent. He refuted this. He said the AB culture wouldn’t allow them to disrespect a team in this way and McCaw’s leadership eliminates the possibility of complacency creeping in.
• McCaw is “a special man.A bright bastard. Totally driven”
• He talked about the importance of the teams leadership group. They are vital in setting the culture and the coaches work closely with them so the players know that they are being listened to.
• The coaches decide on the composition of the group, but they sound the group out first eg ‘we were thinking x might add something to the leadership group.
• There are some obvious candidates for the group but the public would be surprised who is involved. There are some very inexperienced members and similarly some high profile AB’s who aren’t. The coaches coach the team, the leadership group look after the values.
• Coaching is pretty much done with by Tuesday in the week of a test. Its too late after that to do anything. After that the players prepare in their own ways. Captains run very important. Can tell when the team is up for it.
• Someone asked about the haka (someone always does) Coaches have no idea what the players are going to do. They find out at the same time as we do.
• Was asked about world rugby. Said this year (pre June tests) was going to be tough. England are the big movers in world rugby and would present the sternest June tests the AB’s had ever faced. Oz were improving and rated themselves and Sth Africa couldn’t be as poor as last year!!!! Said while that was all true it ignored the fact that the AB’s believe they have plenty of room for improvement. There were lots of times last season when the coaches and players were very unhappy with their performance. They believed that they never really put it together on the field for the full 80 and weren’t as good as they could be.
• There was quite a bit said about individual players but I’m going to limit myself to the halfback position as that has been pretty controversial on here and also because it ties in with a broader discussion Fox had about the composition of the team. The selectors firmly believe that if you’re good enough then you’re old enough but that the flip side was that if you are good enough then you are never too old. Leaders are important and if two players are impossible to separate then experience. Leadership and mana enter the equation
• If Piri had Will Genia's stamina he would be perfect but the game has moved on. In 2013 after 60 minutes Aaron Smith had run as far as he did in 80 minutes in 2012.Piri has an amazing skill set and a really good feel for the game. He was a national hero in 2011 but now he can't last 20 minutes at international level and its solely down to his genes not his work ethic or ability. They kept him in the team for his experience and he is a great team man but Smith suits the team game plan and simply moves the ball faster. When he plays everything speeds up.
• Ellis is the same. He's fit but he's just not the quickest guy. Nett result is for the AB's he ends up playing the game on his own and that doesn't fit the pattern. You can see the same thing happening to his game at the Crusaders now. So yes guys you can argue he may be in the top 3 in the country but they believe he can’t play to the teams pattern and structure.
• Fox talked about Carlos Spencer as an example. Physically and skills wise he had the ability to be the best ever but he wouldn’t put in the work involved on the mental side and so he never reached the heights he could have, but what a phenomenon. Almost impossible to coach and didn’t like playing to a pattern when Fox coached him he asked Carlos to play to the team structure off 1st phase but after that he was given carte blanche to express himself and everyone else was told to follow Carlos.
• Its important to the coaches that the dignity of the jersey is maintained. Guys know if they are out of the running. There are some obvious examples if you think about it where someone has been tapped and have decide to pull the pin on their own terms.
• Asked about the differences between his day and the modern day Fox said you simply can’t compare. He believed in general his era had more life skills because they were amateurs holding down jobs etc and todays players can live in a bubble which is why values and leadership are so vital.
• Believed his era couldn’t compete with the modern players who were far superior athletes. His generation also had a much deeper drinking culture but just like today they looked after each other. He talked about / was asked about the time his “try” against Ireland was disallowed. He had played with some of those guys for years. They all knew everything about each other (like he was able to tell us the pre match routines of half a dozen of his Akl teammates because he had observed them hundreds of times). Anyway Fitzy took it upon himself to make sure Foxy got legless in the changing room. Eventually they thought they had better go up to the after match which involved a trip up in a lift. On the first floor the lift opened and without knowing who he was joining in stepped the linesman who disallowed Fox’s try. By the time they did get to their floor the poor official seriously thought Fitzy was going to kill him.
• Toughest opponent “when you’re my size they’re all tough but the dirtiest was Eric Champ. Most respect – Lynagh and Ollie Campbell” but without doubt Foxy’s toughest opponent was Michael Jones in Akl club rugby.

So a great hour and a half with a great All Black. Apologies its taken me so long to post. Hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. I can’t hope to adequately convey the humour and dignity with which Foxy spoke but I have tried to do my best.