New Zealand v Australia - Auckland - 23 August 2014

[Train Without a Station]

A lot of baby out with the bath water talk today.

Certainly Simmons, Carter, Palu and Fardy didn't cover themselves in glory last night.

Last test season Rob Simmons was one of our best performers and looked like a real test lock. Palu was great against the Lions last year and exceptional in Super Rugby. Fardy looked like what we were missing all of last test season from his debut. Carter was heralded as the hard working lock we need with Simmons due to his first 2 test matches.

The fact of the matter is all 4 of these players have shown that they have been able to put in the best test performances we can see from their positions in Australia.

No replacements have consistently, or more than once briefly show that they can offer any more. It's foolish to say these players need to be replaced, unless we want to do worse.

These players have shown they have the ability to be good. Good players don't just become bad players. The capability is there, link is paid to get it out of them. It's time for Link to step up to the plate.

To ignore the halves is foolish though. The halves are a major part of the direction and tactics of the team. Neither of these players have shown they are the answer there at test level. Due to that it's time to replace them with the players who have performed better at Super Rugby level. Hopefully better direction and energy from the halves offering smarter play will kick start the forwards a little.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Oh and people can harp on about how the halves weren't the issue that the forwards were but that fact of the matter is 9 and 10 have alternatives breathing down their neck and there was almost no conjecture from 1-8. These were clearly the best, most consistent options available.

 

[Braveheart81]

Oh and people can harp on about how the halves weren't the issue that the forwards were but that fact of the matter is 9 and 10 have alternatives breathing down their neck and there was almost no conjecture from 1-8. These were clearly the best, most consistent options available.

I've obviously been one of Beale's biggest backers on the forum but I'm happy to concede that Foley should start.

I think the biggest issue is his defence more than anything else though.

I think he's our most dangerous attacking player but moreso when he can play wider out. If he wasn't a liability in defence then I'd probably start him at 12 but as it stands, Foley 10, To'omua 12, Beale on the bench.

That said, starting Phipps should see an immediate improvement to our backline.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Crotty out for 4 weeks, cracked his jaw Slade-styles:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...an-Crotty-out-for-month-with-cracked-jaw-bone

Good news (for AB) is Nonu should be fit for Argentina in 2 weeks.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Oh and people can harp on about how the halves weren't the issue that the forwards were but that fact of the matter is 9 and 10 have alternatives breathing down their neck and there was almost no conjecture from 1-8. These were clearly the best, most consistent options available.

Yep. There aren't a lot of forwards currently riding the pine, so to speak, who are kicking down the door of a starting place. As you say, it's a different story in the halves.

 

[cyclopath]

Oh and people can harp on about how the halves weren't the issue that the forwards were but that fact of the matter is 9 and 10 have alternatives breathing down their neck and there was almost no conjecture from 1-8. These were clearly the best, most consistent options available.

The halves were an issue, for sure. The insipid performance up front was a bigger one.
I think we need to look at Phipps / Foley now, but if the forward play is as slow, flat-footed and un-dynamic as we saw last night, the benefit of playing Phipps and Foley with a more up-tempo style will be diminished.
Applying a template used by the Waratahs won't work just like that - it's not what McKenzie seems to be doing, and it takes time, fitness and trust for the players to implement it. In 2013, the Tahs didn't really trust the plan / style fully and were mixed; this year they got it and it worked. Besides, Test match rugby is not the same as we know, so it isn't that simple.
Real work must be done to get the defence organised better, to get the breakdown work more accurate and aggressive, and to work on support play / pass / catch better.
I think we are really a bit bereft at hooker (no offence but Charles and Hanson are not at the level of TPN and Moore), lock (but it is always hard when you are being compared to the best locking combo going around, I think) and THP (Kepu is going OK but that side of the scrum seems to be a bit on/off (maybe partly the work coming behind him??).
Speight will be a boost.
Make those changes / improvements and we are competitive with most teams, but still somewhat shy of the All Blacks at the moment.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I disagree on Hooker. We have our 3rd most capped hooker as 3rd choice still. Our reserve hooker was considered our 3rd best about 18 months ago. Charles has leap frogged both of them. That's called building depth.

We don't lack cattle. We could have better cattle yes, but we have adequate cattle.

At the reds in Link's short journey to the top he made some mistakes and we had some bad losses. But he learned from those mistakes and we bounced back from those losses (I believe the canes dished us up a hiding about 6 or 8 weeks before we became champions). Time for Link to really earn his pay now.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I've obviously been one of Beale's biggest backers on the forum but I'm happy to concede that Foley should start.

I think the biggest issue is his defence more than anything else though.

I think he's our most dangerous attacking player but moreso when he can play wider out. If he wasn't a liability in defence then I'd probably start him at 12 but as it stands, Foley 10, To'omua 12, Beale on the bench.

That said, starting Phipps should see an immediate improvement to our backline.

Even at his worse Quade still managed to pole axe Morne the time he was suspended and even give Jean De Villiers a real bell ringer off a line out back in 2010. Beale has shown a real unwillingness to make any strong contact and rather hang off attackers. I was willing to accept him as a weak defender like all 10s but last night he was worse than I could have imagined.

Foley is not a great defender but even he would have shut down the attackers space and forced them to pick and option before at worst, attempting, missing a tackle and slowing them down.

Almost every time Beale was forced to defend last night he let the attacker dictate terms, before at best, making a tackle after they had disposed of the ball.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Had a quick glance at some of the stats from the game.

Lots of stats were surprisingly equal but a couple stood out.

Missed Tackles AUS 22 NZ 10
Clean Breaks AUS 4 NZ 14

Lots of problems with our pass and catch, but if you aren't tackling the opposition, and missing second up tackles to contain possible breaks then you end up with scores like we saw last night, particularly when the other mob are making their tackles and effectively containing any 1/2 breaks.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Funnily enough wasn't it the reverse last week?

 

[Brumby Runner]

I've obviously been one of Beale's biggest backers on the forum but I'm happy to concede that Foley should start.

I think the biggest issue is his defence more than anything else though.

I think he's our most dangerous attacking player but moreso when he can play wider out. If he wasn't a liability in defence then I'd probably start him at 12 but as it stands, Foley 10, To'omua 12, Beale on the bench.

That said, starting Phipps should see an immediate improvement to our backline.

Well said BH.

 

[chasmac]

Haven't read all of the 66 pages on the forum.
Our forwards were blown off the park.
Was there a tactic for not putting too many numbers in the ruck, it seemed that some of the forwards were setting themselves for the next phase whilst the AB forwards were dominating the breakdowns.
The commentators were calling the forwards lazy, but I wonder if they were instructed to keep the numbers in the tackle contest down. Bad idea if it was.
What about the 2 tries from McCaw. What was the intent from the pack in these instances?
There is alot of talk about the backs being bad but I think the focus needs to be on the pigs. Nick White will likely lose his starting spot partly because of the work / tactics of the forwards.

 

[boyo]

Getting the basics right (catching, passing, tackling) instils confidence, which often means that 50/50 situations are more successful.

Getting the basics wrong breeds a lack of confidence, which often means that 50/50 situations are less successful.

It can be a vicious circle.

 

[wamberal]

Another factor which might have been missed, is that Link kept the squad in Sydney until the Thursday. Originally I thought this was a great idea, particularly as it was obviously part of an initiative to change the mind-set of the players. They were also staying in a totally different hotel.

However, as it transpired, the weather in Sydney was diabolical, which meant that outdoor training was either severely curtailed or, at best, took place under totally different conditions to those that purtained on the Saturday in Auckland.


So the Darkness had the advantage of training all week in conditions that were suited to the game-day, while we were playing basketball indoors.


In retrospect, it would have been better to get four or five days training under the conditions that our opponents were enjoying. Good or bad weather, we should be in the same situation as them.

 

[TahDan]

All of these can fixed by the training problem the coach sets.

To a certain extent, but you could say the same for the Kiwis and the Poms when they play the Kangaroos. At the end of the day the All Blacks do have a bigger pool of quality professional players and get the best pick of the country's athletes.

Apart from SBW I can't think of anyone in the Kiwi league team that you'd say would make it in the ABs, but in you'd have to say that guys like Jarryd Hayne, Greg Inglis, Cooper Cronk, Billy Slater, Jonathan Thurston and maybe even guys like Dugan would likely make the wallabies if they were given a year to convert.

Forwards are harder of course.


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[Quick Hands]

Another factor which might have been missed, is that Link kept the squad in Sydney until the Thursday. Originally I thought this was a great idea, particularly as it was obviously part of an initiative to change the mind-set of the players. They were also staying in a totally different hotel.

I'm not sure how big a factor it was, but at the time it was made known I thought it was a weird way to do things.

Getting to and from ariports and on and off planes and actually flying is a full day out of your preparation. The Thursday before a Saturday match could be put to better uses I'd have thought.

 

[Slim 293]

A lot of baby out with the bath water talk today.

Certainly Simmons, Carter, Palu and Fardy didn't cover themselves in glory last night.

Last test season Rob Simmons was one of our best performers and looked like a real test lock. Palu was great against the Lions last year and exceptional in Super Rugby. Fardy looked like what we were missing all of last test season from his debut. Carter was heralded as the hard working lock we need with Simmons due to his first 2 test matches.

The fact of the matter is all 4 of these players have shown that they have been able to put in the best test performances we can see from their positions in Australia.

No replacements have consistently, or more than once briefly show that they can offer any more. It's foolish to say these players need to be replaced, unless we want to do worse.

These players have shown they have the ability to be good. Good players don't just become bad players. The capability is there, link is paid to get it out of them. It's time for Link to step up to the plate.

To ignore the halves is foolish though. The halves are a major part of the direction and tactics of the team. Neither of these players have shown they are the answer there at test level. Due to that it's time to replace them with the players who have performed better at Super Rugby level. Hopefully better direction and energy from the halves offering smarter play will kick start the forwards a little.

Bingo.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

To a certain extent, but you could say the same for the Kiwis and the Poms when they play the Kangaroos. At the end of the day the All Blacks do have a bigger pool of quality professional players and get the best pick of the country's athletes.

Apart from SBW I can't think of anyone in the Kiwi league team that you'd say would make it in the ABs, but in you'd have to say that guys like Jarryd Hayne, Greg Inglis, Cooper Cronk, Billy Slater, Jonathan Thurston and maybe even guys like Dugan would likely make the wallabies if they were given a year to convert.

Forwards are harder of course.


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The "pick of the athletes" argument isn't as true as it used to be, there's 100+ Kiwis-eligible players in NRL & plenty in UK SuperLeague, probably as many fully pro league as Union players in total.

Other than SBW, I'd suggest that Shaun Johnson would walk into any AB side & guys like Ben Henry, Konrad Hurrell & Shaun Kenny-Dowell would be there or thereabouts. Also don't forget Jared Waerea-Hargreaves was a pretty handy union player, one of the few with an ARC winners medal iirc.

 

[Slim 293]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet but McCabe's possibly re-injured his neck.........

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...-after-third-neck-injury-20140824-107s6s.html

 

[TahDan]

The "pick of the athletes" argument isn't as true as it used to be, there's 100+ Kiwis-eligible players in NRL & plenty in UK SuperLeague, probably as many fully pro league as Union players in total.

Other than SBW, I'd suggest that Shaun Johnson would walk into any AB side & guys like Ben Henry, Konrad Hurrell & Shaun Kenny-Dowell would be there or thereabouts. Also don't forget Jared Waerea-Hargreaves was a pretty handy union player, one of the few with an ARC winners medal iirc.

Fair call, and the Kiwis are generally more competitive these days. But all the same, their relationship with the Kangaroos is almost a mirror image of the Wallabies relationship to the All Blacks.

In fact that game last night reminded me an awful lot of last years RLWC Final; like the Kangaroos in that game, the All Blacks looked like they had a point to prove.

So to a certain extent the player numbers even out a bit, but the success of the national team does still seem related at some level to the place the game holds in each country.


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