New South Wales v Queensland: 130th Anniversary

[kiap]

Ok, so it looks like the photos at the top of the thread are from the 12th of July, 1884.

... Having been photographed, both teams appeared on the field punctually at 3 o'clock. The New South Wales team, captained by C. Tange (colours, green), was placed as follows -

S. Dean, back
Wood, P. Chapman, H. M. Baylis, half back
H. Fligg, S. Chapman, B. Cameron, quarter-back
C. Tange, F. Baylis, Osborne, O'Donnell, Shaw, Sweetland, Pearson, and Walters, forwards.

Much regret was expressed at the absence of that sterling player, J. Oxley from the ranks of the home team, but Shaw played a good hard game in his stead.

The genial veteran Hickson governed the Queensland men (colours, chocolate), and distributed them as under -

Pring, Roberts, back
H. Pritchard, A. Feez, G. Pratten, half-back
J. Anderson, T. Pratten, quarter back
Hickson, Robinson, Ransom, Bond, Armstrong, Wood, Baynes, Snell and Eddison, forwards. ...

From Sydney University, Shaw, Wood, and Tange are in the NSW photo, whilst Neill is not (he was included for the second Qld match).


Click to view full size: Sydney University 1887


Click to view full size: NSW 1884

In 1886 the NSW team changed to a scarlet red jersey (with a badge including a dragon) seemingly based upon the Welsh colours. Queensland swapped to a dark blue jersey that year. So, oddly enough, it was the NSW Reds versus the Qld Blues in 1886!

 

[suckerforred]

So I notice in the Sydney Uni photo there is an HH Lee (backrow, far right). No wonder LG's knowledge of the game is so good. He has wonderful lineage.

 

[Lee Grant]

That's very funny guys - the remarks about if I have any notes on the players etc. I will get even sometime.

I went through my books last night and saw the 1886 photo of NSW (Pollard 1st ed. p 484 - 2nd ed. p 352) and deduced that the photos in question were of the 1884 teams as kiap indicates.

That was because the real 1883 photo (Hickie p. 175) had the Southern Cross on the NSW jerseys and the 1886 team didn't. If the Stars vanished between 1883 and 1886 and we knew the questioned NSW photo could not have been in 1882, then the photo must have been taken in 1884 in Sydney or in 1885 in Brisbane.

What makes us so sure that the questioned NSW photo was taken in Sydney and not Brisbane?

The Qld 1882 photo [Pollard 1st ed. p 638, not in Pollard 2nd.] is in the same spot and taken from the same angle as the questioned photos are; you can see the same fence on the left. They played in Sydney, but they could have been photographed before they left home. But almost a tick for Sydney.

The uncropped 1886 NSW photo [Pollard 1st ed., p 484], which we know was taken in Sydney was taken from a more front-on angle to the stand; so you can't see any fence on the left. However, the columns show the same ornamental thingo on them as in the questioned photo. Another almost tick for Sydney.

I had seen that Sydney Uni 1887 photo [Hickie p.182] and thought, yep take off the bowler hat and the scruffy moustache and that could have been Tange 3 years earlier. I was just about to click on the "Post Reply" button last night to say that the photos were of the 1884 teams, when I saw the 1878 Sydney Uni photo [Hickie p.141] and the Tange in that didn't look anything like the captain in the questioned NSW photo 6 (or 7) years later (and, though not to the point, not to the Tange in the 1887 Uni photo either.)

In fact, the skipper in the questioned NSW photo looked a dead ringer for G.W.Graham in a photo of the 1882 NSW touring team to NZ which I spotted had names on it. If you don't have the Hickie book [p.171] but have one of the Pollard books, which don't name the players, he's the guy sitting down in the left corner: [p 482 1st ed, p 340 [2nd ed.]

If the player holding the ball in the questioned NSW photo (and the captains always held the ball) was Graham, it would mean that it is of the 1885 team, taken in Brisbane. It also means they must have used the same columns for the stands in different states. It would also mean that the 1882 Qld photo was taken before they left home - and, incidentally, they do seem to be in their best togs and there are no hangers-on behind or to the left of the players to indicate there was a game on.

It's a bit of a stretch, but it's possible that the two photos in the 1st post of the thread are the 1885 photos taken at Albert Park in Brisbane, though they are probably not.. It's more likely that my dead ringer opinion is wrong.


PS - There's a lovely photo of Bruce holding hands with someone in the 1887 Uni photo, by the way.

 

[Hawko]

If there is a post to top this one then its going to have to be a beauty!!!

Great work, Lee. Were you a detective in real life?

 

[Swat]

From now on Lee, if you say 'because I said so' as a justification for anything I'll believe it.

 

[chasmac]

Bugger me Lee. Was the moon landing a hoax?

 

[kiap]

Good posts, gents! I like these discussions even when I'm wrong. At a minimum it gives me an excuse to dig up more stuff, but it's really the chance to find out things I didn't know.

It's a bit of a stretch, but it's possible that the two photos in the 1st post of the thread are the 1885 photos taken at Albert Park in Brisbane, though they are probably not.. It's more likely that my dead ringer opinion is wrong.

You've got a reasoned case there, Lee. Maybe a high-charging defence lawyer? (Better pay than the detectives. Well, some of the detectives, anyway...).

I am still adding all those 'partial ticks' to put those photos in Sydney. But you're right that it's not quite 100% conclusive so far. I've got some other bits and pieces though, so I'll add some more in a short while.

I don't have the Hickey or Pollard books (or any physical books covering the pre-1900 period). I do have a few images but some are poor quality. Any chance of photo-ing/scanning/posting your pictures of C.W. Graham on here?

PS - There's a lovely photo of Bruce holding hands with someone in the 1887 Uni photo, by the way.

Yeah, noticed that.

 

[kiap]

Some details from Peter Horton's "A History of Rugby Union in Queensland"; hmm, ... another one of these PhD theses. I don't have high quality image scans, as mentioned above, but the photos are still mostly discernible.


Click to view full size image of the Queensland team from 1885 [Horton p.247].

The first thing to note is that Qld changed their jersey again in 1885. You can't tell much about the colour from the B&W image (although it has changed from brown the previous year to blue) but the large, inter-twined ‘N’ and ‘U’ letters over the chest are obvious. It is clearly different to the smaller NRU monogram on the photo in the original post.


Click to view full size image of the Qld and NSW teams prior to the first intercolonial match of 1885 [Horton p.244].

The resolution is not great but you can see two kinds of dark-coloured jerseys: one half with 4 white 'dots' in the shape of the southern cross; and the other half with a white 'patch' high on the chest in the place where the 'N' and 'U' letters are shown in the previous photo.

The footnotes also refer to the temporary hessian-shade stands and the rough surface of the ground. The Albert Sports Ground was only opened in 1884, as noted by the Brisbane Courier newspaper:

... The opening of the new Albert Sports Ground was an event of considerable importance to the cricketing and sporting community in a city which, like Brisbane, is but poorly supplied with cricket grounds. That the new ground supplies the actual want will not be generally admitted, for sooner or later the association must obtain a ground of equal, or nearly equal, proportions to the fine cricket enclosures of Sydney or Melbourne. Nevertheless the Albert Sports Ground will prove exceedingly useful. Its situation is easy of access by omnibus or rail. It forms a portion of the seven acres of land occupied as a garden by Chinese between the Bowen Bridge-road and the Bowen Hills railway station. The company at present possess about four and a half acres, but on the lease of the remaining portion falling in, as it will in about five months' time, the whole portion will be in their hands, and will be devoted to the purposes of athletic sports of all kinds

 

[Bruce Ross]

PS - There's a lovely photo of Bruce holding hands with someone in the 1887 Uni photo, by the way.

I presume, LG, that you have confused me with JR Wood, which is a name I have rarely used. If it was indeed me, and it is so long ago that I have no recollection of it, you will notice that the bounder I was shaking hands with - and I think that PB Colquhoun more than merits that description - presumably in a gesture of manly goodwill before the contest, was at the same time gripping the right breast of LEF Neill, who understandably looks confused. If you look closely you can just detect Colquhoun's right leg also in immediate proximity to S Stokes's right leg. S Stokes is totally bewildered because his leg is also being cuddled by TP Maloney. It is abundantly obvious that more than a few of the University team of that era were ex-boarding school boys.

The mind boggles at what JF McManemy was up to or thinking about as he lurked behind the captain JAK Shaw.

 

[Lee Grant]

I don't have the Hickey or Pollard books (or any physical books covering the pre-1900 period). I do have a few images but some are poor quality. Any chance of photo-ing/scanning/posting your pictures of C.W. Graham on here?

Mate - I have trouble with my TV remote control, and Lindommer has to tell me how to work my phone. I'm no chance. Sorry.

But use one of those library websites and track the Hickie book down. It's a good photo with the names supplied. The book is "They Ran With The Ball - How Rugby Began In Australia" by Thomas V. Hickie [Logman Cheshire, Melbourne 1993]

The photo is on page 171.

PS - That photo of the 1885 Qld team in your last post was actually of the 1887 team.


Only kidding.

 

[kiap]

PS - That photo of the 1885 Qld team in your last post was actually of the 1887 team.

Only kidding.

Hey! - (That would spin this thread out for another day or so until the start of the game, though...).

I'll give the book search a go. Thanks mate.


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Nah, it's not him.